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Old 02-08-2019, 02:01 PM   #11
hcobb
 
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Default Re: 14-Hex Dragon

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Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post
Why dig, though? A 14-hex dragon should have more than enough mass to simply knock the walls over.
By ITL66 a 14-hex dragon masses around 5 short tons.

A 4x4x10 block of granite is over 13 short tons and isn't quite a full hex of Wall.
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Old 02-08-2019, 02:41 PM   #12
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Default Re: 14-Hex Dragon

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One aspect that I always found odd about TFT dragons (probably due to biases held over from how they were presented in D&D), was the the blanket statement that "they are never wizards". Why give them such a high IQ if they can't use spells?
So they can disbelieve YOUR illusions easier.
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Old 02-08-2019, 02:44 PM   #13
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Default Re: 14-Hex Dragon

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So they can disbelieve YOUR illusions easier.
Also good for saving vs. Word of Command, or making a Detect Lies roll, generally hatching plots, and other things.
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Old 02-08-2019, 03:22 PM   #14
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Default Re: 14-Hex Dragon

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Detect Lies
What talents does the average dragon know?

Note how I try to square "very status conscious" while only "found alone or in small family groups" here:

http://www.hcobb.com/tft/house_rules.html#dragons
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Old 02-08-2019, 03:32 PM   #15
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Default Re: 14-Hex Dragon

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By ITL66 a 14-hex dragon masses around 5 short tons.

A 4x4x10 block of granite is over 13 short tons and isn't quite a full hex of Wall.
You and I must visualize a dragon's lair very differently. I'm picturing a massive cavern with 50-70 ft ceiling... plenty of room for a 14-hex dragon to maneuver. After all, he's got a 24 IQ. No way he corners himself in a cramped environment.

So even if you had the ST to stack multiple layers of 'wall', it is unlikey to extend high enough to truly trap the beast. He should be able to simply climb over it or, since it would be free-standing, he could probably generate enough force thru mass and momentum to knock it down.

And where does it say that a spell-created stone wall is 4 ft thick? 4x4x10 sounds like a big pillar to me, not a wall (until you start connecting them). And why assume it has the density of granite?
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Old 02-08-2019, 03:36 PM   #16
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Default Re: 14-Hex Dragon

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I've been testing giving them talents, and am liking the results. It turns out I found quite a few talents that a dragon could use to good effect, even with such high IQ (assuming IQ is some sort of measure of the talent points available), and even without the likely assumption many dragons may have diverse rather than practical interests.

In particular for combat effectiveness, Tactics and Strategy, Toughness, Unarmed Combat, Alertness, and Dragon-Physicker (especially for GM's like me who allow physicking per wound).

Also languages and Literacy, Alertness, Detect Lies, Recognize Value, Assess Value, Diplomacy, others...

There might also be some dragon-specific talents, like their own versions of fighting talents.
I really hope 'monster' talents are in-scope for the TFT Bestiary that has been hinted at by the SJG guys.
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Old 02-08-2019, 03:41 PM   #17
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Default Re: 14-Hex Dragon

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So they can disbelieve YOUR illusions easier.
Meh, I think most dragons follow the philosophy of "burn 'em all and let the gods deal with the mess". ;)
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Old 02-08-2019, 03:43 PM   #18
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Default Re: 14-Hex Dragon

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Another issue with dragons: why do the tails only (potentially) knock someone down? Why not allow damage, as well, since even a Reptile Man can do damage with their much smaller tails?
Good point. A 14-hex dragon is probably at least 5 or 6-hexes of heavily scaled tail muscle. I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that swipe.
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Old 02-08-2019, 05:14 PM   #19
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Yes, although that would make them something very different. It's interesting to have them be powerful monsters that aren't wizards... (would be more interesting if they were a little more powerful). It would also be interesting to let them learn spells, and would make them a lot more formidable, but it would be a different kind of interesting.
You know, the more I think about it, the description doesn't actually say that dragons can't cast spells (although I would concede that was probably the intent). It just says "they are never wizards" which could be reasonably interpreted to mean that dragons use the 'hero' template for how they spend IQ. So therefore, they can learn spells, albeit at the higher cost of 3-points per.
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Old 02-08-2019, 06:04 PM   #20
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Default Re: 14-Hex Dragon

I routinely give spells to 7 hex dragons and always to 14 hex dragons. I understand it isn't canon rules, but whatever.

Also, I'm not offended by the ST scores of 4 hex dragons; they are babies, not the real deal.

I don't understand how anyone could think that a 14 hex dragon on the ground in its lair would be easy to defeat (even ignoring the optional addition of some spells). It does a lot of damage, has a lot of armor, can't be killed quickly, and has access to several attack forms. Other than powerful magic items or some made-up special scenario, I'm not sure how an ordinary party playing under the current rules would approach the situation.
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