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Old 03-14-2018, 03:48 PM   #11
tbeard1999
 
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Default Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
Here's the deal in a nut shell. Melee character creation is based on Algebra; that's why I included the formulaic expressions
If I understand what you are saying, the equation is:

ST + DX + IQ = Attribute Points

So for a beginning character -

ST12 + DX10 + IQ10 = 32 = ST10 + DX12 + IQ10, for instance.

If so, then any change in the actual value of ST will render this equation invalid.

And logically, if you bifurcate ST, you reduce the value of ST. This invalidates a key TFT presumption - that ST, DX and IQ are equivalent in value.

My point is that the presumption is not actually true. The utility/value of ST has been increased in ITL, yet its cost in attribute points has not changed. (Also, the actual comparative value of ST, DX or IQ depends on the type of character - a thief is likely to value DX more than ST for example).

I also assert that breaking Power out of ST has no real effect on the value of ST to heroes. And while it does make ST pretty much useless to Wizards, so what? After all, THAT'S THE GOAL. Plus, Power effectively replaces ST completely for Wizards. 8 points of Power will give a Wizard virtually the same real benefit that he currently gets from 8 points of ST. (Yes, ST governs damage taken. But I think this is balanced out by the fact that casting spells no longer causes the wizard to take damage.)

It's the best solution I can come up with to solve the Conan the Wizard problem. It's an easy change, it solves the problem and it has no effect on heroes. Other solutions - adding Health being the most popular - hurt heroes by making it harder to get tougher and do more damage.

Last edited by tbeard1999; 03-14-2018 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 03-14-2018, 03:56 PM   #12
JLV
 
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Default Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built

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The Immovable Foundation-Stone of TFT

...skipped about 8000 words
Too long; didn't read.
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Old 03-14-2018, 04:13 PM   #13
Jim Kane
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Default Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built

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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
In Melee, the "price" of ST is exactly the same as DX - each point of ST or DX costs one attribute point.
Okay, 2 things: 1) I have t answer this way - I do not see where in the rules it states anything about relative value of ST and DX, or the concept of any cost associated with the distribution of the 24 VERY FREE points everyone is allotted to distribute across the form of: [(a+b=b+a)]. I am answering you this way on purpose, as I am trying to get you into the perspective of the actual stated premise, and not how we have come to assume we understand the premise - so we can go deeper into the belly of this thing when we are on the same page.

Can we agree the notion of the concept of "cost" is not stated in the Melee rule-set; BUT that is a common interpretation of the rules as is an "assumption via inference" and not a rule, nor stated?

Which leads me directly to: 2) LOL! I suspect you and I both know the approximate quantized value of ST, DX, and IQ; but again, it is outside the scope of the treatise, so I dont want to answer it here and risk a De-rail - so PM me, and I will give you my values there. Lets see how our numbers agree, but not here; okay?
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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
I don't think I have the spare brain cells for it. I think that you make a good point - assuming I understand correctly - that if you take something away from ST, you make ST less valuable. This then invalidates a key concept of TFT - that all attributes have equivalent value.
Nope, but you were good about something being violated. The point is you can't take anything away from anything, not from ST or DX without theoretically subtracting,.... and if you subtract to create,... you violate the Commutative Law of Addition which the premise is founded on.

You can only add. But you cant add by taking away,...because the whole thing is built on [(a+b)=(b+a)],.... which is Commutative, and the Arithmetic Law states that the Commutative Law of Addition does not work for Subtraction, and if you cannot subtract to add... where are you?,... round and round it goes.

That's why the Foundational Stone in Immovable,... you see my point?

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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
My argument is that the original "price" of ST in Melee/Wizard may not accurately reflect its actual utility/value.
Again, the price concept is not rule, nor stated anywhere as such, it is assumption through inference; agreed?

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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
Plus, the ITL additions to ST will increase the utility/value of ST. If ST was accurately priced in Melee/Wizard, this addition will render that pricing invalid.
Same answer here.

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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
Finally, I am asserting that splitting Power from ST will have no effect on the value of ST to heroes, which is a Good Thing.
Maybe so, but where did "Power" come from? There is ST, DX, and IQ; so what is the point-of-origin of "Power"?

Last edited by Jim Kane; 03-15-2018 at 04:39 AM.
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Old 03-14-2018, 05:11 PM   #14
tbeard1999
 
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Default Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
Okay, 2 things: 1) I have t answer this way - I do not see where in the rules it states anything about relative value of ST and DX, or the concept of any cost associated with the distribution of the 24 VERY FREE points everyone is allotted to distribute across the form of: [(a+b=b+a)]. I am answering you this way on purpose, as I am trying to get you into the perspective of the actual stated premise, and not how we have come to assume we understand the premise - so we can go deeper into the belly of this thing when we are on the same page.

Can we agree the notion of the concept of "cost" is not stated in the Melee rule-set; BUT that is a common interpretation of the rules as is an "assumption via inference" and not a rule, nor stated?

Which leads me directly to: 2) LOL! I suspect you and I both know the approximate quantized value of ST, DX, and IQ; but again, it is outside the scope of the treatise, so I dont want to answer it here and risk a Derail - so PM me, and I will give you my values there. Lets see how our numbers agree, but not here; okay?
Nope, but you were good about something being violated. The point is you can't take anything away anything, not from ST or DX without theoretically subtracting,.... and if you subtract to create,... you violate the Commutative Law of Addition which the premise is founded on.

You can only add. But you cant add by taking away,...because the whole thing is built on [(a+b)=(b+a)],.... which is Commutative, and the Arithmetic Law states that the Commutative Law of Addition does not work for Subtraction, and if you cannot subtract to add... where are you?,... round and round it goes.

That's why the Foundational Stone in Immovable,... you see my point?

Again, the price concept is not rule, nor stated anywhere as such, it is assumption through inference; agreed?


Same answer here.

Maybe so, but where did "Power" come from? There is ST, DX, and IQ; so what is the point-of-origin of "Power"?
Obviously I need to review the original post. Oh, and Power is my suggested 4th attribute. Itís used to power spells instead of ST. It would solve the Conan the Wizard problem without adversely affecting heroes. Ironically, I never found the Conan the Wizard issue to be a big deal in my games. BUT...we didnít have that many wizards as PCs in my campaigns.
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Old 03-14-2018, 05:14 PM   #15
Chris Rice
 
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Default Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
That's a good approach for you Chris, but you do realize that you are stating a whole new premise, yes?
Of course I do realise that Jim. And I think it's unlikely that it will be adopted for TFT2, whatever that becomes, but it's still my preferred methodology. At the moment....

What's been nice to see on these threads is the ideas from many long term players, some of which I'd never thought of before and may adopt myself in the future.
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Old 03-14-2018, 05:23 PM   #16
tbeard1999
 
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Default Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built

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Of course I do realise that Jim. And I think it's unlikely that it will be adopted for TFT2, whatever that becomes, but it's still my preferred methodology. At the moment....

What's been nice to see on these threads is the ideas from many long term players, some of which I'd never thought of before and may adopt myself in the future.
Agreed. I havenít yet heard a suggestion that made me go ďthatís the dumbest thing Iíve read this week.Ē
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:25 PM   #17
Jim Kane
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Default Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built

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Obviously I need to review the original post. Oh, and Power is my suggested 4th attribute.
Okay, so if you want to considering adding a 4th attribute, first understand how the rules are expressed as the current 3 attributes of ST, DX, IQ = 32. I think most you might want to now how an engine works before they start modifying it, yes?

Well the premise is the Algebraic Engine which drives the TFT character creation. So we need to discover which engine you are going to modify.

Mathematically 3Attributes@32 could be expressed in three ways, it depends on if you think Wizard is an expansion to the Melee rules, or if Wizard restated Melee/Wizard, or if it was the Melee premise which was expanded, jsut as though IQ was there all along. Here how they look for what they really are:


The letters being variable values:

TFT as Melee Premise only [(a+b)=(b+a)] = 24

Now, here comes the addition of the IQ Attribute with Wizard/IQ

TFT as Melee Premise/Wizard expanding {[(a+b)+c]=[c+(b+a)]}=32 ?

or, is it,

TFT as Wizard Restates the WHOLE Premise [(a+b+c)=(c+b+a)]=32 ?

or, is it, {[(a)+(b)+(c)]=[(c)+(b)+(a)]}=32; like 3 independent reels on a slot machine that gives you a total pay-out?

So before you state a premise for 4 Attributes, you should know the which premise of 3 attributes you understand first; logical?

If NO, then just do whatever you want and simply slap that 4th Att on your character anywhere you like, and don't even worry about how it changes the math and the game; being the foundation of the design. Just have at it and have fun.

If YES, the first step you would need to do is to decide which of the three expressions of Melee/Wizard states how YOU understand the 3 ATT TFT premise when taken from a ST DX @24 premise and into a ST DX IQ @32 premise.

We will take it from there when you have decided if Melee is the base with IQ added on top to expand to 3 Atts, or, is it now a whole new base including both together.

Jim

Last edited by Jim Kane; 03-15-2018 at 11:21 PM. Reason: Correct Value Total
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:29 PM   #18
Jim Kane
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Default Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built

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Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
Of course I do realise that Jim. And I think it's unlikely that it will be adopted for TFT2, whatever that becomes, but it's still my preferred methodology. At the moment....

What's been nice to see on these threads is the ideas from many long term players, some of which I'd never thought of before and may adopt myself in the future.
I wouldn't know about what they are doing, but we will find out. Everyone needs to do what they do. That's why in my post, I didn't suggest any solution; I stated the problem, then provided the analysis to the causation of the problem for consideration; so people can work out their own answer for themselves.

Last edited by Jim Kane; 03-15-2018 at 01:55 AM.
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Old 03-15-2018, 06:52 AM   #19
Jim Kane
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Default Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built

Ty -

For additional comparison:

The algebraic formula for the character creation premise as stated in TFT:ITL could be written as:

32 = {[(8 ST)+(8 DX)+(8 IQ)] / 8}

Being the most up-to-date restatement of the premise.

"... starts with 8 ST, 8 DX, 8 IQ, and 8 EXTRA points to be allotted between any or all of these attributes, as the player chooses. Thus, each human figure begins with a total of 32 points." - Jackson, Steve. "Selecting Attributes." In The Fantasy Trip: In The Labyrinth, p7. Austin: Metagaming, 1980.

As the most recent, and the most specific in the verbiage used in all the previous permutations of the stated premise, I would presume this to be what is most accurate as to what the philosophical view is with regard to the nature of the disconnected/connected nature of the Basic Attributes as they are related/unrelated to each other beyond being variable sums within a shared total.

If the above statement is true, then, the Melee premise and the ITL premise are two different premises; ergo, two different games.

PS - that is as close as I can write the formula given the limitations of the keyboard characters to indicate 8 being distributed across the Basic Attributes accurately - but I think the picture serves as is.

Last edited by Jim Kane; 03-15-2018 at 07:01 AM.
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Old 03-15-2018, 05:50 PM   #20
vitruvian
 
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Default Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
Okay, so if you want to considering adding a 4th attribute, first understand how the rules are expressed as the current 3 attributes of ST, DX, IQ = 32. I think most you might want to now how an engine works before they start modifying it, yes?

Well the premise is the Algebraic Engine which drives the TFT character creation. So we need to discover which engine you are going to modify.

Mathematically 3Attributes@36 could be expressed in three ways, it depends on if you think Wizard is an expansion to the Melee rules, or if Wizard restated Melee/Wizard, or if it was the Melee premise which was expanded, jsut as though IQ was there all along. Here how they look for what they really are:


The letters being variable values:

TFT as Melee Premise only [(a+b)=(b+a)] = 24

Now, here comes the addition of the IQ Attribute with Wizard/IQ

TFT as Melee Premise/Wizard expanding {[(a+b)+c]=[c+(b+a)]}=36 ?

or, is it,

TFT as Wizard Restates the WHOLE Premise [(a+b+c)=(c+b+a)]=36 ?

or, is it, {[(a)+(b)+(c)]=[(c)+(b)+(a)]}=36; like 3 independent reels on a slot machine that gives you a total pay-out?

So before you state a premise for 4 Attributes, you should know the which premise of 3 attributes you understand first; logical?

If NO, then just do whatever you want and simply slap that 4th Att on your character anywhere you like, and don't even worry about how it changes the math and the game; being the foundation of the design. Just have at it and have fun.

If YES, the first step you would need to do is to decide which of the three expressions of Melee/Wizard states how YOU understand the 3 ATT TFT premise when taken from a ST DX @24 premise and into a ST DX IQ @36 premise.

We will take it from there when you have decided if Melee is the base with IQ added on top to expand to 3 Atts, or, is it now a whole new base including both together.

Jim
Unless you're going to enforce BOTH the Melee ST + DX = 24 AND the Wizard ST + DX + IQ = 32 (NOT 36!), then all the algebraic expressions you provide for (starting) attributes are equivalent and it really makes no difference which you use. We also have to reckon with the fact that ITL introduced the concept that it's NOT truly a completely fungible pool of attribute points, but that different races have different starting values for each attribute, humans starting with 8 in each of ST, DX, and IQ and having 8 additional points to add to any of the three.

Therefore, any proposals for adding fourth or further attributes should probably not start with some assumed a priori mathematical principle (e.g., going from Melee to Wizard they went from 24 with a mean over 2 of 12 to 32 with a mean over 3 of 10.67, so going to four attributes we'll have 40 total for a mean over 4 of 10, or whatever). Instead, depending on what the new attributes do, we would evaluate what their starting values should be for various types of figures (i.e., races, etc.) and whether any additional 'bonus' points are needed at all, on the basis of game balance (hopefully backed up by some actual playtesting).

For example, if the fourth attribute is Power (and it would be nice if it did something other than provide energy for spells - maybe it could have something to do with the potency of one's spells against countermagic or other resistance, or how powerful your spells can be as opposed to how many you can know), then presumably the intent is that wizards will buy up DX, IQ, and PW, leaving ST alone, while other characters will buy up DX, IQ, and ST, leaving PW alone - so 8 'bonus' points might well still be sufficient to spread around your attributes.

But the algebraic formulae upon which you're placing so much weight never really had any purpose other than getting (starting) characters to attribute levels where they could contend against each other pretty fairly.
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