The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide - Page 24

Racer · 02-27-2019, 05:06 PM

Brick Heavy Cycles certainly have there place in Gangs : use them with Light weaponry with lots of ammo to wear down opponents . With the other Bikes lined up behind them , ready to swoop out with their heavy weapons once targets Armour is worn down & ammo is getting low . A bit like push bike Teams in Velodrome pursuit Races .
Sloped Armour , Component Armour & Offroad Suspension ( to avoid Dropped Weapons on the tarmac ) all help to frustrate attacks on the Brick Bike : 30pts+ of Sloped Armour at -4 to hit on top of range & other penalties , greatly increase their survivability .
I've seen VMGs waste up to 80% of it's Ammo trying to get a couple of solid hits on one .

swordtart · 02-28-2019, 06:07 AM

I suppose another tactic would be to optimise the Light brick bike to put the majority of it's armour up front and don't bother with the fake gun and use them as a rolling shields.

Assuming a 3 lane highway and a stern chase, three of these driven by prospects could sit in the centre of each lane with a line of armed bikes (Strikers) behind them.

The shielding light bricks would effectively block LOS to the armed bikes and would have sufficient armour, HC and to hit penalties to be relatively durable.

Periodically an armed bike only need make a D1 drift to pop out from the shield, wait a phase to fire (to avoid the targeting penalty for movement) and pop back under cover in the next phase. You could stagger the pop-ups to avoid bikes shutting down LOS (timed properly up to 5 bikes in the stack could rotate in and out each turn without getting in each others way). You could have 10 strikers per stack if pairs popped out left and right simultaneously)

You could have more than one tier of shield bikes so that they could rotate out if their front armour was getting thin (or to replace the front runner if they actually got taken out).

This would mean you could concentrate your designs on a single function rather than having to be all-rounders.

"Striker", with little armour, a rider focused on gunner skill, decent computers and an effective weapon (e.g. VMG).

"Shield" with good sloped armour (incl. wheel guards to the front), a rider focused on cyclist skill, reasonable HC to absorb the gunfire hazards (incl. HD shocks) and possibly a few smoke dischargers front and back to cover a tactical withdrawal (or give the rider ABV stuffed with smoke grenades).

The major downsides are:
a) You are probably increasing the range step of your shooters by at least one more than you would of they were at the front of the stack (and the larger the stack the greater the penalty), but you can offset that with the extra gunner skill you can bring to bear by being able to reduce the cyclist skill of the Strikers.
b) For the stack to be effectively shielded you need to keep some distance between you and the opponent to close down the LOS angles. Since this assists the survival of the Shields this is unavoidable. Maximising the Strikers chances to hit is integral to the strategy.

swordtart · 02-28-2019, 06:16 AM

Actually thinking on, instead of the Strikers moving, you could have a stack of shield bikes (which are probably cheaper and have already been optimised for HC) drifting in and out to expose Strikers who maintain their position and thus don't suffer penalties to hit for maneuvers (or erode their likely poor HS).

This allows rotation of Shields and possibly more closely reflects the usual composition of a bike gang (lots of expendable prospects, fewer experienced bikers with decent gunner skills).

Hmmm I'll have to try this.

The strategy somewhat fails if the opponent decides that he doesn't want to be part of a stern chase anymore, but that will mean turning in the road and the bikes just need to slow quickly, drop smoke and then turn and run. They will have decent acceleration and can always go off-road to better cover.

Racer · 02-28-2019, 09:29 PM

Rev. Light Trikes also make great blockers for Gangs . Large or Super PP , HTMs , Spoiler AND Airdam , HD MG etc & 60-70pts of Sloped Front Armour for $10K & it could easily protect three or four times it's worth in Cycles or other Trikes . All the while taking minimum amounts of easily repaired damage .

Both Gang & Anti Gang tactics have evolved a fair bit in last few years . I'll have to post some elsewhere ;-)

swordtart · 03-01-2019, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swordtart

Actually thinking on, instead of the Strikers moving, you could have a stack of shield bikes (which are probably cheaper and have already been optimised for HC) drifting in and out to expose Strikers who maintain their position and thus don't suffer penalties to hit for maneuvers (or erode their likely poor HS).

Afterthought:
It doesn't flippin' work this way ;(

If the Striker is to maintain it's position, you can only have a single Striker behind the Shields and every Shield needs to move. Having to move half a dozen bikes to expose half that number of armed vehicles is nonsensical (and in an actual counter based game would be tedious).

Boo!

I still think the original concept has mileage though. I'll have to compare it to 17th century musket maneuvers to see if there are any useful parallels.

Using a trike is also an option, but to be honest, once you have access to trikes you might as well arm them and gain the benefit of three firing arcs into one. The ability to target the top is also a slight worry.

Hmmmm, can you target the top of a bike? I don't see why not. The height of bikes vs other vehicles means almost everyone can target the top as out of arc for -2. As you cannot armour the top, you can't claim the -1 for sloping armour with shots into that arc, which basically means you only take an additional -1 to bypass all front armour.

Bit of a weakness there methinks.

Racer · 03-01-2019, 07:24 AM

On ground Level , a 'normal sized' Vehicles Top can only be target by an Oversized Vehicles Turret(s) between 1½" to 6" Range . I think as they are exposed from Sides & Top & Bottom anyway ( unless they have a Windshell , I'd let Cycles off . IF you go down the Trike Rules , they'd be an ADDITIONAL -2 to Hit - so -5 plus all other penalties .
As I've mentioned before , in 30+ years can recall only four times a Trike's Top has been targeted from ground level - and half of those shots missed even at close Range .

swordtart · 03-01-2019, 08:59 AM

Racer:
That may be true in certain versions of the rules (Truck Stop if memory serves), but under 2.5 the specific 11/2" - 6" rule was removed.

In the jumping and falling rules section each vehicle was given specific heights (trikes were 1/4" for example).

The targeting rules in 2.5 simply to enforce a 45 degree maximum off the center line for elevation/depression of guns. Otherwise you can target anything you can trace LOS to. If you are not in the arc that you are firing into then you suffer -2.

For a vehicle in the front arc of the target (for example) the rule applies equally to shots to side armour as to shots to the top armour.

As pointed out in another thread this also means that as side mounted weapons are considered to be halfway up, the guns of a trailer are 1/2" up, above the height of a trike and therefore even side mounted weapons can target the top of a trike (and possible a subcompact if memory serves) with only an out of arc penalty (and if the vehicle is close enough (<1/2") it may not even be an out of arc shot)

I take it you agree that when shooting at the side arc of a cycle that has sloped armour front and back, the -1 for sloped armour will not apply.

juris · 03-01-2019, 11:26 AM

Sword - I don't think the devs even considered the ramifications of the new vehicle height rules, and how it might turn an obscure rule about taking a -2 penalty to fire at a non-facing side and turn it into a game changer. I do like the idea of people having to worry about roof hits - I'm tired of the 2 point of T armor exploit-mobiles (your example of a trike was bad - you can always target the roof of trike from the sides and front (or rear if reverse trike I think)).

I'd like a simplified rule like the 1.5-6" rule in truck stop for all 'taller vehicles with turrets', except I'd make it 1"-6" for simplicity. Edit: Also remember you couldn't hit a shorter vehicle under 1".

Quote:

Originally Posted by swordtart

Racer:
That may be true in certain versions of the rules (Truck Stop if memory serves), but under 2.5 the specific 11/2" - 6" rule was removed.

In the jumping and falling rules section each vehicle was given specific heights (trikes were 1/4" for example).

The targeting rules in 2.5 simply to enforce a 45 degree maximum off the center line for elevation/depression of guns. Otherwise you can target anything you can trace LOS to. If you are not in the arc that you are firing into then you suffer -2.

For a vehicle in the front arc of the target (for example) the rule applies equally to shots to side armour as to shots to the top armour.

As pointed out in another thread this also means that as side mounted weapons are considered to be halfway up, the guns of a trailer are 1/2" up, above the height of a trike and therefore even side mounted weapons can target the top of a trike (and possible a subcompact if memory serves) with only an out of arc penalty (and if the vehicle is close enough (<1/2") it may not even be an out of arc shot)

I take it you agree that when shooting at the side arc of a cycle that has sloped armour front and back, the -1 for sloped armour will not apply.

43Supporter · 03-01-2019, 01:44 PM

For my part: A helicopter with LG CBs does wonders for convincing biker gangs to Go Away (permanently).

swordtart · 03-02-2019, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juris

Sword - I don't think the devs even considered the ramifications of the new vehicle height rules, and how it might turn an obscure rule about taking a -2 penalty to fire at a non-facing side and turn it into a game changer. I do like the idea of people having to worry about roof hits - I'm tired of the 2 point of T armor exploit-mobiles (your example of a trike was bad - you can always target the roof of trike from the sides and front (or rear if reverse trike I think)).

I'd like a simplified rule like the 1.5-6" rule in truck stop for all 'taller vehicles with turrets', except I'd make it 1"-6" for simplicity. Edit: Also remember you couldn't hit a shorter vehicle under 1".

There are plenty of things that the devs considered as rules drifted in and out ;)

We are however left with the rules as written and the implications. Once you get into spurious discussions on "rules as intended" you will never reach consensus. I am not sure out of arc could be classed as an obscure rule. If there is any game changing aspect it is with the out of arc rule rather then it's application to a specific arc.

I am not sure which trike example was bad. I was highlighting the general case where you can target the top of a trike (and any other low vehicle) from any direction if your guns are higher than the vehicle (not just the special case for trikes when even guns lower than the the height of the trike can target the top, which as you say does not apply in all cases). I also point out that within certain distances you don't even suffer the -2 as you are not out of arc.

Personally I would suggest that all out of arc shots can only destroy armour and weapons mounted to that arc. That would prevent a lot of rules abuse (where you can strip a car from front to back without touching the side armour despite being in the cars side arc) and would also more accurately reflect grazing shots.

02-27-2019, 05:06 PM	#231
Racer Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, UK	Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide Brick Heavy Cycles certainly have there place in Gangs : use them with Light weaponry with lots of ammo to wear down opponents . With the other Bikes lined up behind them , ready to swoop out with their heavy weapons once targets Armour is worn down & ammo is getting low . A bit like push bike Teams in Velodrome pursuit Races . Sloped Armour , Component Armour & Offroad Suspension ( to avoid Dropped Weapons on the tarmac ) all help to frustrate attacks on the Brick Bike : 30pts+ of Sloped Armour at -4 to hit on top of range & other penalties , greatly increase their survivability . I've seen VMGs waste up to 80% of it's Ammo trying to get a couple of solid hits on one . __________________ Five Gauss Guns on a Camper !!! The Resident Brit .

02-28-2019, 06:07 AM	#232
swordtart Join Date: Jun 2008	Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide I suppose another tactic would be to optimise the Light brick bike to put the majority of it's armour up front and don't bother with the fake gun and use them as a rolling shields. Assuming a 3 lane highway and a stern chase, three of these driven by prospects could sit in the centre of each lane with a line of armed bikes (Strikers) behind them. The shielding light bricks would effectively block LOS to the armed bikes and would have sufficient armour, HC and to hit penalties to be relatively durable. Periodically an armed bike only need make a D1 drift to pop out from the shield, wait a phase to fire (to avoid the targeting penalty for movement) and pop back under cover in the next phase. You could stagger the pop-ups to avoid bikes shutting down LOS (timed properly up to 5 bikes in the stack could rotate in and out each turn without getting in each others way). You could have 10 strikers per stack if pairs popped out left and right simultaneously) You could have more than one tier of shield bikes so that they could rotate out if their front armour was getting thin (or to replace the front runner if they actually got taken out). This would mean you could concentrate your designs on a single function rather than having to be all-rounders. "Striker", with little armour, a rider focused on gunner skill, decent computers and an effective weapon (e.g. VMG). "Shield" with good sloped armour (incl. wheel guards to the front), a rider focused on cyclist skill, reasonable HC to absorb the gunfire hazards (incl. HD shocks) and possibly a few smoke dischargers front and back to cover a tactical withdrawal (or give the rider ABV stuffed with smoke grenades). The major downsides are: a) You are probably increasing the range step of your shooters by at least one more than you would of they were at the front of the stack (and the larger the stack the greater the penalty), but you can offset that with the extra gunner skill you can bring to bear by being able to reduce the cyclist skill of the Strikers. b) For the stack to be effectively shielded you need to keep some distance between you and the opponent to close down the LOS angles. Since this assists the survival of the Shields this is unavoidable. Maximising the Strikers chances to hit is integral to the strategy. Last edited by swordtart; 02-28-2019 at 06:10 AM.

02-28-2019, 06:16 AM	#233
swordtart Join Date: Jun 2008	Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide Actually thinking on, instead of the Strikers moving, you could have a stack of shield bikes (which are probably cheaper and have already been optimised for HC) drifting in and out to expose Strikers who maintain their position and thus don't suffer penalties to hit for maneuvers (or erode their likely poor HS). This allows rotation of Shields and possibly more closely reflects the usual composition of a bike gang (lots of expendable prospects, fewer experienced bikers with decent gunner skills). Hmmm I'll have to try this. The strategy somewhat fails if the opponent decides that he doesn't want to be part of a stern chase anymore, but that will mean turning in the road and the bikes just need to slow quickly, drop smoke and then turn and run. They will have decent acceleration and can always go off-road to better cover.

02-28-2019, 09:29 PM	#234
Racer Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, UK	Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide Rev. Light Trikes also make great blockers for Gangs . Large or Super PP , HTMs , Spoiler AND Airdam , HD MG etc & 60-70pts of Sloped Front Armour for $10K & it could easily protect three or four times it's worth in Cycles or other Trikes . All the while taking minimum amounts of easily repaired damage . Both Gang & Anti Gang tactics have evolved a fair bit in last few years . I'll have to post some elsewhere ;-) __________________ Five Gauss Guns on a Camper !!! The Resident Brit .

03-01-2019, 07:24 AM	#236
Racer Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, UK	Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide On ground Level , a 'normal sized' Vehicles Top can only be target by an Oversized Vehicles Turret(s) between 1½" to 6" Range . I think as they are exposed from Sides & Top & Bottom anyway ( unless they have a Windshell , I'd let Cycles off . IF you go down the Trike Rules , they'd be an ADDITIONAL -2 to Hit - so -5 plus all other penalties . As I've mentioned before , in 30+ years can recall only four times a Trike's Top has been targeted from ground level - and half of those shots missed even at close Range . __________________ Five Gauss Guns on a Camper !!! The Resident Brit .

03-01-2019, 08:59 AM	#237
swordtart Join Date: Jun 2008	Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide Racer: That may be true in certain versions of the rules (Truck Stop if memory serves), but under 2.5 the specific 11/2" - 6" rule was removed. In the jumping and falling rules section each vehicle was given specific heights (trikes were 1/4" for example). The targeting rules in 2.5 simply to enforce a 45 degree maximum off the center line for elevation/depression of guns. Otherwise you can target anything you can trace LOS to. If you are not in the arc that you are firing into then you suffer -2. For a vehicle in the front arc of the target (for example) the rule applies equally to shots to side armour as to shots to the top armour. As pointed out in another thread this also means that as side mounted weapons are considered to be halfway up, the guns of a trailer are 1/2" up, above the height of a trike and therefore even side mounted weapons can target the top of a trike (and possible a subcompact if memory serves) with only an out of arc penalty (and if the vehicle is close enough (<1/2") it may not even be an out of arc shot) I take it you agree that when shooting at the side arc of a cycle that has sloped armour front and back, the -1 for sloped armour will not apply.

03-01-2019, 01:44 PM	#239
43Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007	Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide For my part: A helicopter with LG CBs does wonders for convincing biker gangs to Go Away (permanently). __________________ "Dale who?" 79er The Jeremy Clarkson Debate Course: 1) I'm Right. 2) You're Wrong. 3) The End.