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Old 01-12-2020, 08:42 PM   #31
RyanW
 
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Default Re: Bow ST for range and damage clarification

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Grumble Grumble Grip CP.

I'd treat that sort of exertion as equivalent to an attack, or an AoA if you're not strong enough to keep yourself up. I've made a few different attempts to model climbing as "gravity inflicts CP on you each turn; you attack back to keep CP above 0" but none have been satisfactory.
On the other hand, if you're strong enough relative to your weight (think Spider-Man*) you should be able to hang from a rope without interfering with other maneuvers (aside from the occupied hand(s) and limited mobility) Probably if your weight is no more than some multiple of BL.

* Though Spider-Man also has advantages like Clinging that make it a moot point in his specific case.
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Old 01-15-2020, 12:11 AM   #32
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Default Re: Bow ST for range and damage clarification

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
I've made a few different attempts to model climbing as "gravity inflicts CP on you each turn; you attack back to keep CP above 0" but none have been satisfactory.
It would probably have to be part of a larger system. After all there isn't merely passively hanging from a rope, but also something like where you're holding a loose rope and freefalling 3 yards before the rope goes taut, creating a massive shock.

I don't know if it might be related to collision damage somehow with the HP as proxy for mass... except maybe some kind of inherent +1 to velocity to create 'damage' even when immobile due to resisting gravity's attempt to overcome your inertia.

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if you're strong enough relative to your weight (think Spider-Man*) you should be able to hang from a rope without interfering with other maneuvers
I think even Spidey would use up his energy hanging from a rope. Even if adhesion allowed you to do that without clenching your fist, the rest of your arm would fatigue from supporting your torso.

But to someone of his strength, that's probably less fatiguing than it is for a normal human to simply stand upright unencumbered. It's probably the effort it takes us to hold a paperclip in our palm...

At that level he's probably regenerating his energy faster than he's expending it, just like we are, which is why our hand would never get fatigued by that paperclip and force us to drop it.

Not because the paperclip isn't "attacking" our crip (it is), just that it's so minor compared to our metabolic recovery levels.

Last edited by Plane; 01-15-2020 at 12:14 AM.
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Old 01-15-2020, 04:17 AM   #33
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Default Re: Bow ST for range and damage clarification

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Originally Posted by Alden Loveshade View Post
I've done archery (and studied under a friend who's won more archery competitions than he can remember). While I haven't actually field tested the minimum ST for bows or the precise relationship between ST and distance/damage, the way GURPS does it feels realistic to me.
Rules for bows were extensively hashed out by folks with archery/bowyery/fletchery experience during the playtest for GURPS 3E Low Tech. They are generally unaltered in GURPS 4E.

Douglas Cole's "Deadly Spring" gets into the physics of how much damage a given bow/arrow combo should do wrt to firearms and is a very good variant.
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Old 01-15-2020, 04:28 AM   #34
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Default Re: Bow ST for range and damage clarification

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I think even Spidey would use up his energy hanging from a rope. Even if adhesion allowed you to do that without clenching your fist, the rest of your arm would fatigue from supporting your torso.
FWIW, many critters with exoskeletons have hydrostatic skeletons/joints which allow them to hang onto walls, webs, etc. without expending energy. Just assume that Peter Parker got that particular spider superpower along with his wall-crawling abilities.
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Old 01-18-2020, 03:18 PM   #35
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Default Re: Bow ST for range and damage clarification

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FWIW, many critters with exoskeletons have hydrostatic skeletons/joints which allow them to hang onto walls, webs, etc. without expending energy. Just assume that Peter Parker got that particular spider superpower along with his wall-crawling abilities.
Makes sense... do we have hydrostatic skeletons/joints in GURPS terms though?
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Old 01-18-2020, 04:27 PM   #36
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Default Re: Bow ST for range and damage clarification

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
FWIW, many critters with exoskeletons have hydrostatic skeletons/joints which allow them to hang onto walls, webs, etc. without expending energy. Just assume that Peter Parker got that particular spider superpower along with his wall-crawling abilities.
There's also the minor factor of being a hundred times stronger than human, making it about as fatiguing as carrying a 2 lb weight.
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Old 01-19-2020, 08:06 AM   #37
Plane
 
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Default Re: Bow ST for range and damage clarification

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There's also the minor factor of being a hundred times stronger than human, making it about as fatiguing as carrying a 2 lb weight.
Makes me wonder what sort of weights people have held for hours on end though, even if light, if that could cramp.

I just figure it's not that there isn't a fatigue factor, just that the regen is faster.
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Old 01-20-2020, 02:09 AM   #38
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Default Re: Bow ST for range and damage clarification

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Makes me wonder what sort of weights people have held for hours on end though, even if light, if that could cramp.

I just figure it's not that there isn't a fatigue factor, just that the regen is faster.
This is more like wearing a 2lbs watch than standing straight holding a 2lbs weight in your hand with your arms outstretched. Im not super human, but my legs support far more than that for many hours at a time. I think your looking at something more like this than the holding a 2lbs bucket.

As long as the item isnt so large it requires you to exert effort to grip it you probably do it a lot more often than you think... how much does a cell phone in a case weigh? People carry those around for hours at a time without muscle fatigue.

Its not just the weight, its also the difficulty or ease to hold it in a natural position, the theory being that Spiderman is not actually exerting effort to grip the surface so its like wearing a light weight on your arm all day and going about your business. Once you got used to the change in balance I doubt you would notice it at all.

Even if he is exerting force somehow its still the hand in its natural state and doesnt require some odd contortion of the joints to work, I see this like carrying some heavy object that is designed to be held and weighing a couple pounds like say a small pistol or a work out weight... you would be able to do that for a really long time before you were forced to change hands. Back to the heavy Cell phone... Im sure you could carry a 2lbs cell phone all day if thats how much they had to weigh to work, you wouldnt notice it much.

This is also a really theoretical discussion because we are talking about a "Super" who has gained 10x or more strength with no appreciable change in mass or volume of muscle. "The muscles just work better"... therefore the rules of normal need not apply.
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Old 01-23-2020, 11:03 AM   #39
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Default Re: Bow ST for range and damage clarification

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Originally Posted by bocephus View Post
This is more like wearing a 2lbs watch than standing straight holding a 2lbs weight in your hand with your arms outstretched. Im not super human, but my legs support far more than that for many hours at a time. I think your looking at something more like this than the holding a 2lbs bucket.
Maybe a good analogy might be how sloths hang from branches? Their curved claws basically remove the need for finger muscles to "grip" the branch, which could be how Spidey's adhesion powers work.

Adhesion/claws don't explain how the elbow holds together and the shoulder holds together. That could either be explained by muscular effort, or by allowing oneself to stretch out to the point where ligaments are holding the tissue together.

Relying on ligaments instead of muscle for posture is lower-energy, like how the iliofemoral ligament allows standing with less energy than relying on hip flexor muscles. So I could see some certain postures which shift stress from muscles to ligaments as consuming less AP.

There might be gradual deformation (stretching) of ligaments over time if relied on though... though it might be weight that matters more than time. Not sure how to deal with that. Maybe treat ligaments as some kind of HT-like DR against AP loss from load-bearing?
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