What TL is the original Star Trek?

[maximara]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Yes, well, they don't navigate with slide rules, so they're not TL(6+x). And they don't seem to have ubiquitous computing, or neural nets, or much in the way of genetic engineering, or microelectronics as advanced as ours, so I don't think they quite work as TL(8+x).

There were primitive electric computers near the end of TL6 and mechanical adding machines had been around since 1820. So you could have TL(6+x) with no slide rules in sight.

Originally Posted by whswhs

They definitely have technologies that we have strong reason to regard as "impossible" and that would count as superscience: warp/FTL and the concomitant time travel, transporters, I think force fields, tractor beams, probably artificial gravity (they aren't relying on centrifugal force to give them a sense of up and down, and they seem to be able to compensate fairly well for acceleration). So they're TL(7+x)^.

So what are their capabilities, once you set aside the superscience that might have shown up at any TL? We can set aside the interstellar flight; they're doing that with superscience, not with anything vaguely realistic like Bussard ramjets or antimatter reaction drives. Their phasers might be compact particle-beam weapons of a sort; on the other hand they might be simply disintegrators, which count as superscience. Stylistically they appear a lot like compact lasers, which are TL10. They have antimatter energy storage, which is TL10, and isn't used on anything smaller than a starship. They don't have cellular rejuvenation, regeneration, or full metamorphosis; they don't even have uploading, and while we do see what amounts to a brain transplant, it's presented as McCoy achieveing a virtual miracle with the aid of advanced science and exceeding his normal limits. So they seem to be retarded in the biological sciences in some ways.

The overall impression I get is that they look rather like TL10, with a few capabilities that aren't realistic and that, if they didn't violate natural light, might just as well be discovered tomorrow as with the benefit of a few centuries of scientific advance. So I'd probably call them TL(7+3)^.

Star Trek cannot be TL (7+3)^ because a TL6 culture can duplicate the technology in a few decades from just one component per Worlds of the Federation.

For the Iotians, at TL6, to have any chance at duplicating Federation Technology the highest TL the Federation can be is TL(7+2)^. Remember that a TL that is 4 or higher then your own is impossible to understand much less duplicate. (B168) This limits the upper range of what Star Trek's TL can be.

See GURPS Prime Directive on the GURPS wiki for a detailed reasoning as to why Star Trek at best is TL(6+3) to TL(7+2) under 3e GURPS TL (and that only works if you ignore "Piece of the Action" and Worlds of the Federation) and TL(7+2)^ (transtator TL6^; Medicine: TL7^) under 4e TL.

Per Spock: "The transtator is the basis for every important piece of equipment that we have." So how much of TOS tech is TL(7+2)^ or TL6^ depends on what uses the transtator. Note per Memory Alpha duotronics appears to be the TOS equivalent of computer chips and was largely replaced by isolinear circuitry by the TNG era. But Duotronics didn't come into existence until the early part of the 23rd century.

Superscience like Magic totally screws up the GURPS TL scale. Not to mention that GURPS Fantasy introduced the concept of Equivalent TL where magic (or superscience) makes the TL look higher then it actually is.

For example, take Etheria where limited manned interplanetary exists. This is normally TL9 but the world is actual TL(5+1)^ (etheric spacecraft, TL5^) or 3 to 4 TLs below what would be "normal". D&D Starjammer has an even greater disconnect between Equivalent TL (3+6) and actual TL (3^ to 4^).

Azoth-7 has what amounts to fast interstellar travel, normally a TL12, and they are TL4^! Cyrano also has space travel TL4^ while TL(5+4) elsewhere.

Britannica-5's antimatter is not TL10 but TL5^ and there is cinematic aspects to Star Trek antimatter that implied that antimatter in TOS is superscience which would kick it off the GURPS TL scale.

Futura is TL(5+1)^ despite having manned interplanetary possibly interstellar travel. It is a very Dieselpunk world: "Ayn Rand on crystal meth or Jack London on crack. It's Tim Burton's Speed Racer, it's Fritz Lang's Star Wars". Again nowhere near where the TL "should" be.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

How much of that is TOS, and how much is TNG/DS9/Voy/Ent?

It is definitely a thing in TOS that any form of sapient AI is depicted on a scale that ranges from "threat" to "menace". The artificial intelligences that Kirk destroyed make quite a daunting list.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by maximara

T
Star Trek cannot be TL (7+3)^ because a TL6 culture can duplicate the technology in a few decades from just one component per Worlds of Star Trek.
.

We have no reason to think the Iotians really did that. And yes, "Worlds of the Federation" counts as "no reason". It's listed under "apocrypha" in the Memory Alpha listing for the Iotians for a reason. If we can't consider TNG when evaluating Star Trek, we certainly can't consider Worlds of the Federation, which is both unofficial and actually written during the run of TNG (complete with a foreword by "Lt. Commander Data"). In fact Ronald Moore immediately disavowed Worlds of the Federation and wrote a "Forget what that guy said about Klingons, THIS is how Klingons are on the show" memo.

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

It is definitely a thing in TOS that any form of sapient AI is depicted on a scale that ranges from "threat" to "menace". The artificial intelligences that Kirk destroyed make quite a daunting list.

Looking at the Safe-Tech entry in Ultra-Tech:
“In a Safe-Tech setting, restricted technologies are usually possible, but haven't been invented, or have been invented and rejected. Individual researchers (often of the “eccentric genius” or “mad scientist” gadgeteer type) and people working with alien technology may have produced examples of all of the above technologies, as well as various types of super-science. However, they are unique prototypes, costing at least 100 times normal and defying easy reproduction. Moreover, the lack of organized research in these areas means that breakthroughs tend to go out of control, harbor fatal flaws, or be stolen by criminals. This often results in the premature demise of the researchers and a further reinforcement of any bans.”

That certainly sounds like Star Trek to me.

[dataweaver]

In Ultra-Tech terms, Star Trek seems to be TL7 Retrotech with Emergent Superscience, though a case could also be made for TL10 Safe-Tech. Personally, I view the Divergent TL notation as a synonym for Retrotech, and Emergent Superscience is merely a reminder that TL suggestions for Superscience are just that: suggestions.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

In Ultra-Tech terms, Star Trek seems to be TL7 Retrotech with Emergent Superscience, though a case could also be made for TL10 Safe-Tech. Personally, I view the Divergent TL notation as a synonym for Retrotech, and Emergent Superscience is merely a reminder that TL suggestions for Superscience are just that: suggestions.

No. If Star Trek was Retrotech, their guns would shoot bullets, their cars would burn gasoline, their surgeons would use scalpels. Or things like that. It would be first edition Traveller or Firefly. Retrotech isn't divergent tech. It isn't "our steam engines are super-advanced and as good or better than your internal combustion engines. Just more steamy." It's "Yes our starships are lit with torches and transport knights on horses to new planets to conquer them. Wanna make something of it?"

A TL 7 setting with "emergent superscience" isn't retrotech either. It's just a setting that is TL 7, even though superscience technologies have been invented because they are making no difference to how the public at large lives. They still have the same income, drive the same cars, do the same jobs as, say, North America in the 1950s and 60s...but there are also secret government programs or mad scientists who have a weather control device, or a time machine, or know how to keep a brain alive and functioning in a jar...developments that have no impact whatsoever on how normal people live and work.

It's also wrong to assume that divergent tech is the same thing as "not having invented an important technology so you work around it and do amazing things with steam engines or clockwork". That's one approach, but you can also get divergent technology from "Jean-Baptiste Lamarck invented a way to reshape lifeforms into living tools so now we shoot waspguns and ride around in turtle-mobiles".

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by maximara

Star Trek cannot be TL (7+3)^ because a TL6 culture can duplicate the technology in a few decades from just one component per Worlds of the Federation.

I've never heard of World of the Federation. I'm going by what was actually shown on the television episodes of the original series. Admittedly C and I haven't rewatched all of them; we just saw "Amok Time" a couple of days ago (one of the very best episodes, to my mind even better than "City on the Edge of Forever"). So I could be overlooking something shown in a later episode. But I've been getting sustained exposure to what Roddenberry's original vision of future tech was like.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

It is definitely a thing in TOS that any form of sapient AI is depicted on a scale that ranges from "threat" to "menace". The artificial intelligences that Kirk destroyed make quite a daunting list.

I was just speculating to C the other night that all the civilizations that create AI carefully provide it with a lack of self-referential awareness that makes it unable to cope with logical paradoxes like the Spanish Barber, ensuring that it can be killed straightforwardly in an emergency.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

A TL 7 setting with "emergent superscience" isn't retrotech either. It's just a setting that is TL 7, but superscience technologies have been invented but are making no difference to how the public at large lives. They still have the same income, drive the same cars, do the same jobs as, say, North America in the 1950s and 60s...but there are also secret government programs or mad scientists who have a weather control device, or a time machine, or know how to keep a brain alive and functioning in a jar...developments that have no impact whatsoever on how normal people live and work.

I think that may be too narrow a definition. Yes, Reed Richards is useless, as TV Tropes puts it. But consider Heinlein's "Magic, Inc.," Anderson's Operation Chaos, or Turtledove's The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump. The magic in all three is functionally a technology; it's radically divergent from electronics and nuclear energy and antibiotics; but it also permeates everyday life, from diet foods that magically vanish from your digestive system to a 100% reliable herb-based contraceptive method—it's basically "imagine the 20th century if we did all these things magically."

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

We have no reason to think the Iotians really did that. And yes, "Worlds of the Federation" counts as "no reason". It's listed under "apocrypha" in the Memory Alpha listing for the Iotians for a reason. If we can't consider TNG when evaluating Star Trek, we certainly can't consider Worlds of the Federation, which is both unofficial and actually written during the run of TNG (complete with a foreword by "Lt. Commander Data"). In fact Ronald Moore immediately disavowed Worlds of the Federation and wrote a "Forget what that guy said about Klingons, THIS is how Klingons are on the show" memo.

We can certainly consider TNG when evaluating "Star Trek." We just can't do it when evaluating "the original Star Trek," which is what the OP asked about.