Where GURPS is simpler than TFT...

David L Pulver · 08-01-2018, 08:46 PM

GURPS is generally a much more complex system then TFT, but there are some areas where the rules are actually simpler and faster.

Initiative
* TFT has a variable initiative system that requires rolling initiative, having everyone on a side declaring (and remember) actions, the other side doing that, and THEN characters perform certain combat actions in order of DX.

* GURPS has a much simpler system: every single figure acts each turn in order of highest to lowest speed, and this initiative is retained each turn.

The TFT equivalent would be to drop initiative die rolls and declarations and just act in order of adj DX modified only by armor status each turn.. Break ties with a d6 roll on the first turn of combat and keep that sequence.

Movement
TFT characters have an average MA 10. GURPS characters have an average MA 5. This is simpler in GURPS, as you're less likely to run off the battlefield, especially when horses or flyers are involved.

Now, much of the current flavor of TFT involves the way the initiative and movement rules work, so I wouldn't change them in the core system, but as a house rule I'd consider the simpler "act in order of adjusted DX" option and halved MA.

Note: if doing this, you'd want to give Tactics/Strategy something else to do than provide initiative bonuses. One option might be to allow someone with tactics to "wait for an opening" even when not engaged and to transfer that bonus to one ally each turn if he uses his action to do so...

JLV · 08-01-2018, 11:07 PM

These are interesting points. I don't know if I agree with the movement one yet (having not given it much thought one way or another previously, other than to note the difference), but I definitely think the whole initiative thing could be simplified and made both more "executable" and consistent. And I like your suggestion for doing so.

David L Pulver · 08-02-2018, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLV

These are interesting points. I don't know if I agree with the movement one yet (having not given it much thought one way or another previously, other than to note the difference), but I definitely think the whole initiative thing could be simplified and made both more "executable" and consistent. And I like your suggestion for doing so.

I had another thought for this. If you're using the REGULAR initiative rules, you could allow someone who is acting as a "commander" to:

"Move one 1 hex and give orders" and this gives the following benefits:

+1 to initiative for his entire side, or double the usual bonus if he has Tactics/Strategy.

JLV · 08-02-2018, 01:12 PM

That's an interesting idea. I'll have to playtest that one a bit and see how it does...

ecz · 08-02-2018, 01:18 PM

moving in DX order is a house rule we have considered.

It works, but I'm not sure it really semplifies combat.

The GM must create a dedicated card to record the order. Also if someone is heavily wounded (-2DX/-3DX) this should change his position in the list turn by turn.

Besides most high/DX Characters usually let the opponents move first, so it could be complex take track of the movement order when most heroes or enemies delay their movement.

about tactis and strategist it's easy a house rule where the side with tactis does not need to roll a die in case of equal DX (each one under the benefit of tactis wins any draw in DX and move - or let the enemy move - first).

In case of a strategist in the group, the above benefit is confirmed PLUS one character in the team has a bonus DX +1 for order of movement only purposes. This could be a key advantage.

But remember that - after a successfull 3d/IQ - the GM should reveal the short range tactical plans to the leader of the other group with the Strategist talent ( for example We'll try to kill the wizard, we'll try to enter in HtH with A, and B, while C will use his bow as long as possible and so on...).

About the suggested house rule on movement, I'm not sure how and why this could help the players/GM

zot · 08-03-2018, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecz

moving in DX order is a house rule we have considered.

It works, but I'm not sure it really semplifies combat.

The GM must create a dedicated card to record the order. Also if someone is heavily wounded (-2DX/-3DX) this should change his position in the list turn by turn.

We don't use this house rule but in our last combat, I just put the NPC cards and a card for each PC in a stack to manage DX order. I found that this was quicker than using a written list.

Skarg · 08-03-2018, 09:01 AM

I love the way GURPS combats play out. The combination of shorter MA, higher costs to move other than straight ahead, action with movement, Waiting, slams, knockback, 2-hex bodies, no Engagement, standing Close Combat (HTH), multi-hex reach weapons with a one-yard scale, and active defenses with retreats and so on, makes for a very interesting game.

I think though that if you only take parts of it (lower MA, and per-character move & action), there would likely be problems in TFT, because for example TFT has no active defenses, no Wait moves, and no rules for it taking more MA to move in a circle around an opponent's Front hexes. In TFT, you use initiative, terrain and allies moving at the same time as you to prevent enemies attacking you from the Side and Rear... I'd need to playtest it, and may well be wrong, but I suspect it wouldn't work as well without some of the other stuff that makes it work well in GURPS.

08-01-2018, 08:46 PM	#1
David L Pulver AlienAbductee Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: In the UFO	Where GURPS is simpler than TFT... GURPS is generally a much more complex system then TFT, but there are some areas where the rules are actually simpler and faster. Initiative * TFT has a variable initiative system that requires rolling initiative, having everyone on a side declaring (and remember) actions, the other side doing that, and THEN characters perform certain combat actions in order of DX. * GURPS has a much simpler system: every single figure acts each turn in order of highest to lowest speed, and this initiative is retained each turn. The TFT equivalent would be to drop initiative die rolls and declarations and just act in order of adj DX modified only by armor status each turn.. Break ties with a d6 roll on the first turn of combat and keep that sequence. Movement TFT characters have an average MA 10. GURPS characters have an average MA 5. This is simpler in GURPS, as you're less likely to run off the battlefield, especially when horses or flyers are involved. Now, much of the current flavor of TFT involves the way the initiative and movement rules work, so I wouldn't change them in the core system, but as a house rule I'd consider the simpler "act in order of adjusted DX" option and halved MA. Note: if doing this, you'd want to give Tactics/Strategy something else to do than provide initiative bonuses. One option might be to allow someone with tactics to "wait for an opening" even when not engaged and to transfer that bonus to one ally each turn if he uses his action to do so... __________________ Is love like the bittersweet taste of marmalade on burnt toast?

08-01-2018, 11:07 PM	#2
JLV Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Arizona	Re: Where GURPS is simpler than TFT... These are interesting points. I don't know if I agree with the movement one yet (having not given it much thought one way or another previously, other than to note the difference), but I definitely think the whole initiative thing could be simplified and made both more "executable" and consistent. And I like your suggestion for doing so.

08-02-2018, 01:12 PM	#4
JLV Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Arizona	Re: Where GURPS is simpler than TFT... That's an interesting idea. I'll have to playtest that one a bit and see how it does...

08-02-2018, 01:18 PM	#5
ecz Join Date: Jan 2018	Re: Where GURPS is simpler than TFT... moving in DX order is a house rule we have considered. It works, but I'm not sure it really semplifies combat. The GM must create a dedicated card to record the order. Also if someone is heavily wounded (-2DX/-3DX) this should change his position in the list turn by turn. Besides most high/DX Characters usually let the opponents move first, so it could be complex take track of the movement order when most heroes or enemies delay their movement. about tactis and strategist it's easy a house rule where the side with tactis does not need to roll a die in case of equal DX (each one under the benefit of tactis wins any draw in DX and move - or let the enemy move - first). In case of a strategist in the group, the above benefit is confirmed PLUS one character in the team has a bonus DX +1 for order of movement only purposes. This could be a key advantage. But remember that - after a successfull 3d/IQ - the GM should reveal the short range tactical plans to the leader of the other group with the Strategist talent ( for example We'll try to kill the wizard, we'll try to enter in HtH with A, and B, while C will use his bow as long as possible and so on...). About the suggested house rule on movement, I'm not sure how and why this could help the players/GM __________________ VASLeague Tournament Director www.vasleague.org

08-03-2018, 09:01 AM	#7
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: Where GURPS is simpler than TFT... I love the way GURPS combats play out. The combination of shorter MA, higher costs to move other than straight ahead, action with movement, Waiting, slams, knockback, 2-hex bodies, no Engagement, standing Close Combat (HTH), multi-hex reach weapons with a one-yard scale, and active defenses with retreats and so on, makes for a very interesting game. I think though that if you only take parts of it (lower MA, and per-character move & action), there would likely be problems in TFT, because for example TFT has no active defenses, no Wait moves, and no rules for it taking more MA to move in a circle around an opponent's Front hexes. In TFT, you use initiative, terrain and allies moving at the same time as you to prevent enemies attacking you from the Side and Rear... I'd need to playtest it, and may well be wrong, but I suspect it wouldn't work as well without some of the other stuff that makes it work well in GURPS.