[Basic] Skill of the week: Body Sense

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by ericthered

(depending on setting metaphysics)

This is the crux of the issue. Teleportation being disorienting is a just one possible setting convention. Probably the most prominent teleportation in fiction is Star Trek's transporter, and while it takes a moment to "materialize", the subjects don't appear to experience any disorientation or discomfort upon landing.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

This is the crux of the issue. Teleportation being disorienting is a just one possible setting convention. Probably the most prominent teleportation in fiction is Star Trek's transporter, and while it takes a moment to "materialize", the subjects don't appear to experience any disorientation or discomfort upon landing.

Indeed, that is probably the most widely known example of technological teleportation. Of course one could claim that the time the process takes is why it isn't apparently as "jarring"... or that Starfleet officers, Klingon warriors etc. all have good Body Sense skills because it is a part of Basic training for them.

Also, I feel I came across a bit strongly in my previous post. I do realize that I'm overally pretty clueless about these kinds of things, so I really need to be more "asking" than "telling" that it just seems like the Skill difficulty feels off, from both a "gaming" and "setting" stand point. I mean, having a Black Belt level (well, by 3e standards) Karate Skill is equivalent to having Body Sense at a high enough level to only worry about missing it on critical failures or when trying a stunt that carries a penalty to the roll.

Yes, I know that Karate Skill does not equate to the entire martial art; even just being the generic "advanced unarmed striking" skill that Karate is for GURPS (which requires additional Skills and Techniques and such to represent the full "style"), it still seems like that should be a lot more difficult, unless we start getting into setting specifics.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Otaku

That only fits one kind of teleporter, and it may not even be the most commonly seen in GURPS. Of course, YMMV, or rather my mileage may be the one that is significantly different from the effective norm. As I've made abundantly clear, I've to several years of GURPS experience, but it was with 3e; even though 4e came out 10 years ago, I can't remember if I've even managed to game an actual session since then. I've made a few attempts at teaching some friends the game, but that's it.

So... back in 3e, most teleporters were mages or psions or ultra-tech users. Some might double as "supers", but most were not. Even with the aspects of 3e that were bargains compared to their (often more balanced) 4e prices, few players had the points to get significantly high DX scores along with sufficient IQ and either levels of Magery or the relevant psionic powers. For technology types, eventually it strains disbelief that people who might be using a teleporter to go to work every day haven't naturally built up at least one point into the skill over the years.

They might have, but since that kind of teleportation isn't the kind where you need to teleport repeatedly in combat it doesn't especially matter if you experience a single second's disorientation after teleporting, which is what you seem to have missed. Combat blinkers are not in fact the most common kind of teleporter. But they're the only kind of teleporter where a single seconds inability to attack actually makes a significant difference to their effectiveness. I'm not saying other characters who routinely teleport won't have Body Sense, just that they don't have the same need to be really good at it.

So it is a free, Linked Affliction because of Kurt Wagner?* ;) I do get that GURPS is indeed meant to game out both worlds of your own design as well as established fictional settings, but setting Nightcrawler up to be the rule seems a bit dodgy. Yes indeed, his method of teleporting is disconcerting... but is it because that is the "default" state of such things or is it because that is just how his works?

It's not good enough to be an Affliction. It's only a single second in which you can't attack but can defend normally. Why wouldn't a sudden discontinuous change of position facing require someone to regain their bearings for a second if they weren't accustomed to it?

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

This is the crux of the issue. Teleportation being disorienting is a just one possible setting convention. Probably the most prominent teleportation in fiction is Star Trek's transporter, and while it takes a moment to "materialize", the subjects don't appear to experience any disorientation or discomfort upon landing.

Well of course not. After all they give you a second to look around and get the lay of the land while you are translucently invulnerable (and incapable of attacking). Body Sense is similarly irrelevant to Warp tunnels.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

They might have, but since that kind of teleportation isn't the kind where you need to teleport repeatedly in combat it doesn't especially matter if you experience a single second's disorientation after teleporting, which is what you seem to have missed.

Is the Body Sense roll required anytime you Warp, Time Jump or World Jump? If no then yes, I did misunderstand the rules. If it is required, that is pretty brutal; remember you fall on a critical failure. I definitely misunderstood (despite reading the entry multiple times) that you weren't fully Stunned in game terms, just a turn where you can only defend, however that isn't as harmless as you paint it, even outside of combat. In Combat it costs you a turn to do something plus even with Defense rolls available, it can be exploited.

I want to come back to who is using Body Sense, though. If this is supposed to prevent the stereotypical Mage or Psion or ultra-tech user from being able to "affordably" raising their Body Sense to where they can reliably act the turn after they 'port, okay. I mean even with DX 12, its 12 points to get to Skill 14. There are ways to help with this but still its a bit much to have to take such things just so that a mage isn't standing there waiting to get hit after teleporting in, losing a vital second in warning the king of danger before the king himself is teleported to a distance conference (that is secretly a trap) or for the delivery guy whose delivery times might be measured in seconds when all goes well periodically loses one because of his Body Sense roll or a turn to automatically adjust.

Your argument seemed to be that it was "fair" because Body Sense is usually being bought by characters akin to Nightcrawler, who have a good to great base DX score so that it doesn't take as many points to be a master of Body Sense. Even outside of combat, that single second can matter. This isn't something we can "reality" check; I don't know how hard it would be to adjust quickly to a teleport but this penalty seems excessive if it is purely DX based. I mean, if the process was hard on the mind to comprehend or the body to endure, making it a Hard Skill makes sense. For the first few times you experienced it (especially if you didn't know it was possible before hand), I can see that DX-6 for just getting your bearings.

For such a narrow skill, especially when you aren't being surprised that it exists? DX-6 and being a DX/Hard skill just seems to be asking too much.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Is the Body Sense roll required anytime you Warp, Time Jump or World Jump

?

Only if you attempt to take a (non defensive) action in the first second after doing it.

Your argument seemed to be that it was "fair" because Body Sense is usually being bought by characters akin to Nightcrawler, who have a good to great base DX score so that it doesn't take as many points to be a master of Body Sense.

No. My only argument is that DX is the right characteristic to base Body Sense on. I did not address whether or not the skill was too difficult in the absolute sense. However I would argue that there are no out of combat actions where a single second's delay is at all likely to be critical. If the GM puts one in, that probably indicates he simply wants you to fail and you would be failing even if that second's delay wasn't there.

[Refplace]

I think of it like Fast Draw.
You can take a turn readying your weapon or learn how to do it quickly.
You can take a turn adjusting to a sudden change of position or facing or, again learn to do it quickly. Or take an enhancement if your style of warp does not disorient for some reason.

[Kromm]

Body Sense is almost exactly like Fast-Draw: a time-saver with a small risk attached. Nobody needs it. However, if your shtick is going all ninja even as your molecules reform – wasting literally no time at all – they you might want it. Most ordinary people don't bother trying to roll . . . they wait a second, during which time they may defend, and then act a turn later. Twitchy people get it and roll against it, gambling that they'll act quickly more often than they'll fall down stunned, just as Fast-Draw specialists gamble that they'll act quickly more often than they'll throw away their weapon.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Body Sense is almost exactly like Fast-Draw: a time-saver with a small risk attached. Nobody needs it. However, if your shtick is going all ninja even as your molecules reform – wasting literally no time at all – they you might want it. Most ordinary people don't bother trying to roll . . . they wait a second, during which time they may defend, and then act a turn later. Twitchy people get it and roll against it, gambling that they'll act quickly more often than they'll fall down stunned, just as Fast-Draw specialists gamble that they'll act quickly more often than they'll throw away their weapon.

Thank you for weighing in. With that in mind... is the difficulty still appropriate? It certainly isn't as bad as I first thought (where I was mistaking it for a mandatory check). At the same time this seems to further emphasize that it is overpriced; its being compared with a DX/Easy Skill, and that actually sounds a lot more accurate.

[Kromm]

It is what it is. It's basically on a par with Acrobatics, so it's treated as such. It has a lot more game-breaking potential ("I appear behind him and attack him while he's defenseless, before he has a turn to react" is a lot more potent than "I whip out a weapon he can see and attack him while he can only defend"), but YMMV.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Kromm

It is what it is. It's basically on a par with Acrobatics, so it's treated as such. It has a lot more game-breaking potential ("I appear behind him and attack him while he's defenseless, before he has a turn to react" is a lot more potent than "I whip out a weapon he can see and attack him while he can only defend"), but YMMV.

Hmm...

I really am trying to understand, which given my track record may sound like an impossible feat. >_< One of the things buried in my earlier comments (I think >.>) was the question about whether Body Sense was pricey because it was supposed to be that difficult a skill to learn/contain a significant body of knowledge... purely from a game balance perspective.

If it is about its "game breaking potential", is that something that should be reflected in this skill or should it be in the underlying Advantage?