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Old 01-23-2012, 08:03 PM   #61
mindstalk
 
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Default Re: [Toxic Memes] Memetics: rules, power, effectiveness etc.

Yeah, I know I'm responding to a banned user in an old thread, but:

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Originally Posted by smurf View Post
I'm not a big fan of Memetics, it appears to do something that something else does but avoids saying that by calling itself Memetics.

If ideas are transferred culturally via Memes and if they are Toxic (seriously how are ideas Toxic and how does it infect your gene pool?) are there antidote or immunisation memes?
Innate immunity, analogous to our skin and older parts of our immune system, would be "Don't listen to X!" or "Only listen to Y!" Adaptive immunity would be critical thinking and training in memetic, or as we used to call them, rhetorical, tricks.

Going along the old trivium, we have:
initial state: memetically immune! You can't learn anything formal, good or bad.

grammar: you've learned how to learn, how knowledge is stated. You're fertile ground for memes.

logic (which these days should include probability): you've learned how to think. If you actually apply this, you may be resistant or immune to lots of memes. Though it can also make you vulnerable to more sophisticated memes, that seem logically plausible to you but would have baffled your younger self, as well as memes that appeal to your ego as a logical thinker.

rhetoric: you've learned how to argue, how to present arguments in valid and invalid ways. If you apply your training, you should be highly resistant to most memes, being persuadable only by things you want to be persuadable by, such as well-sourced statistically valid arguments appealing to your interests, say.

Math equivalents of the levels: innumerate; numbers and basic arithmetic; algebra and probability and statistics; good and bad charts and other statistical presentation.

If you have a habit of double-checking sources, and running numbers yourself to make sure claims make sense, and know to identify misleading charts, you'll resist lots of memes. Of course, you'll also have to think more or spend more cycles on processing stuff you're opposed to.

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
I figured that even a fairly modest upswing would be enough to cause rapid mobilization of law enforcement, especially when they couldn't predict in advance which fraction of 1% were affected. A city of 3 million people probably had 100,000 or more young children, and several times that many preadolescents. Even a hundred murders would be an appalling memetic epidemic.
But how would law enforcement mobilize? What can the cops do?
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Old 01-30-2012, 08:31 PM   #62
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Default Re: [Toxic Memes] Memetics: rules, power, effectiveness etc.

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Originally Posted by smurf View Post
I'm not a big fan of Memetics, it appears to do something that something else does but avoids saying that by calling itself Memetics.

If ideas are transferred culturally via Memes and if they are Toxic (seriously how are ideas Toxic and how does it infect your gene pool?) are there antidote or immunisation memes?

The problems arise with genetic 'defects' of memes that dictate that the individual is no longer responsible for its actions. The so called 'criminal disposition' because some DNA scientist has 'found' the criminal gene, the driving car fast gene or something totally unfeasable because evolution has not created X because it was created by social means etc.

Now to really push the boat out... if memetics is true and it can be activated my surname is Stephens brought to (then) England by the French. Therefore, is there a meme to make me speak and read French (albeit old French)? Now That's taking it back by about 1000 years, so how far back in time does Memes have access to ancient stuff.

But let's run with it, it's fun. We will need Meme blockers, Meme enhancers and Meme switches to turn them on and off. What does this do to the individual, you are not who you are but the Genetic combination of past Memes. Hello, Future Shock (no I'm not an Alvin Topher fan). Meme assassination, injecting Memes into people (Dark City?) and is that a genetic assault.

What is meant by Toxic?
Toxic - mems that are likely to make you hurt yourslef are called "autotoxic" and ones that are likely to make you hurt others are "exotoxic". Of course hurting others means they might hurt you back so "exotoxic" ideas are sort of autotoxic also. As an extreme example - suicide bombers - they surely are infected by some toxic memes.

AFAIK memes don't affect individuals genes directly - but of course toxic memes can remove people from collective gene pool and memes that affect how likely one is to reproduce and with whom have effect on gene pool. When modifying genes with technology is possible and available any idea regarding on what is considered appropriate use will have effect.

Immunization - well - memes that are toxic to some often don't cause any "symptoms" on others. IF you believe in "thou sahlt not kill" or "human rights" or things like that you are less likely to act on "hate memes" violently.

A single meme can't make you speak french. But if you get totally infected by "memeplex" called french language - you may start speaking french or even thinking in french. For example liwing in france ot watching french TV shows or deliberately infecting yourself by going to french class might do that.

A "meme" is not necessarily an idea - it can be anything that can be copied by imitation. A single word is a meme. Learing a new word is the same as being "infected" with it. You might teach it to someone else spreading the infection. A gesture or some infectious mannerism can be a meme. They can be subconscious - sort of. If you live in some area where people speak in some way yopu may easily pick up the habit speaking in the similar way and not notice it. Things like that. Ideas and attitudes could creep in like that also.

Well - then there are "mind viruses" that supposedly act in minds bit like biological viruses cat in cells and computer viruses act in computers. Infected minds make copies (occasionally imperfect copies - mutated) of mind viruses that infect them and infect others minds with them trhough communications, An example: "Try not to think of camels and Princess Diana, comrade!"
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Old 01-31-2012, 04:16 AM   #63
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Default Re: [Toxic Memes] Memetics: rules, power, effectiveness etc.

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Originally Posted by mindstalk View Post
Yeah, I know I'm responding to a banned user in an old thread, but:
...grammar: you've learned how to learn, how knowledge is stated. You're fertile ground for memes.

logic (which these days should include probability): you've learned how to think. If you actually apply this, you may be resistant or immune to lots of memes. Though it can also make you vulnerable to more sophisticated memes, that seem logically plausible to you but would have baffled your younger self, as well as memes that appeal to your ego as a logical thinker.

rhetoric: you've learned how to argue, how to present arguments in valid and invalid ways. If you apply your training, you should be highly resistant to most memes, being persuadable only by things you want to be persuadable by, such as well-sourced statistically valid arguments appealing to your interests, say.

Math equivalents of the levels: innumerate; numbers and basic arithmetic; algebra and probability and statistics; good and bad charts and other statistical presentation.

If you have a habit of double-checking sources, and running numbers yourself to make sure claims make sense, and know to identify misleading charts, you'll resist lots of memes. Of course, you'll also have to think more or spend more cycles on processing stuff you're opposed to.

But how would law enforcement mobilize? What can the cops do?
They haven't banned me yet. Got told off for infracting something.

I would argue that Grammar is socially learnt. We learn to speak, more correctly than others in some case, via social interaction.

Thinking is based on the myriad of social interactions that affect a given individual. Not all reactions are the best course of action but as new interactions are aquired they either compound or reject the reactions of an individual... ie the social world.

Debating: a socially evolved activity in which people come together discuss ideas and in some instances to learn.

Mathematics is very much a cultural understanding. Going back into the past and things like the representation of nothing (zero) or owing (negative numbers) develop with new mechanisms of socio-economic interactions. What we now know and love to day as banking.

In summation, where I see 'memes' is where I see social interaction. Therefore I will contest that whoever developed 'meme' theory (there were a few) did so knowing that it was a move from the term social interaction. That is 'meme' theory promotes the ideal of oneness, the individual by ignoring the complexity of human social interactions. However, as posited in the post question, are 'memes' toxic, can they be caught, how would one develop an immunisation program or would there be penalties for discussing subjects to people who do not want to be 'infected', ie meme assault?
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Old 01-31-2012, 10:45 AM   #64
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Default Re: [Toxic Memes] Memetics: rules, power, effectiveness etc.

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Originally Posted by smurf View Post
In summation, where I see 'memes' is where I see social interaction.
Yes.

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Therefore I will contest that whoever developed 'meme' theory (there were a few) did so knowing that it was a move from the term social interaction.
A move from the term, yes. Just as whoever coined the word "astronomy" did so knowing it was a move from the term star-gazing.

Quote:
That is 'meme' theory promotes the ideal of oneness, the individual by ignoring the complexity of human social interactions.
I don't see that at all. The meme theory is, as you say, based on social interactions. It's just an attempt (and currently, in the real world, a rather uncertain one) to come up with a scientific framework for an aspect of social interaction.

In any case, I think the toxicity of memes is often a judgement call. There are memes that are clearly toxic like "Kill yourself in the name of the Grand High Poo-Bah" , and there are ones that are less clear: "Follow the wisdom of the Grand High Poo-Bah" may be toxic depending on what the Grand High Poo-Pah is actually saying.

Basically a toxic meme is just a memetics term for a bad or dangerous, but attractive sounding, idea.

Last edited by DaibhidC; 01-31-2012 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 01-31-2012, 11:28 AM   #65
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Default Re: [Toxic Memes] Memetics: rules, power, effectiveness etc.

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Originally Posted by smurf View Post
They haven't banned me yet. Got told off for infracting something.
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...&postcount=100

Quote:
I would argue that Grammar is socially learnt. We learn to speak, more correctly than others in some case, via social interaction.

Thinking is based on the myriad of social interactions that affect a given individual. Not all reactions are the best course of action but as new interactions are aquired they either compound or reject the reactions of an individual... ie the social world.

Debating: a socially evolved activity in which people come together discuss ideas and in some instances to learn.

Mathematics is very much a cultural understanding. Going back into the past and things like the representation of nothing (zero) or owing (negative numbers) develop with new mechanisms of socio-economic interactions. What we now know and love to day as banking.

In summation, where I see 'memes' is where I see social interaction. Therefore I will contest that whoever developed 'meme' theory (there were a few) did so knowing that it was a move from the term social interaction. That is 'meme' theory promotes the ideal of oneness, the individual by ignoring the complexity of human social interactions. However, as posited in the post question, are 'memes' toxic, can they be caught, how would one develop an immunisation program or would there be penalties for discussing subjects to people who do not want to be 'infected', ie meme assault?
Yep. "social learning" and "getting infected by memes" are the same thing.

Meme theory is just a bit different angle of seeing phenomenoms that hve been known for some time. It does explain some things that are hard to explain othervise. Like why people believe in things or do things that do not really make much sense from any other viewpoint so far. The main point IMO is that soem ideas are innately such that they get copied - transferred from one person to other more than other and that that creates "natural selection" for ideas. Ideas that are more likely to get copied get copied more and become more common. They're not necessarily more "true" or usefull for anyone - though usefulness and being true or at least believable is usually a "survival trait". Sometimes memes get spread just because they're easthetically pleasing or "funny" or whatever.

Logic, mathematics etc are socially learned - but on the other hand could be discovered. An alien race with no contact to human would likely have the same - or at least similar logic and mathematics. That could be called "paraller evolution" though. They'd use different words and symbols - but the how the logic or mathematcis work would be the same expect where our logic or theirs is actually faulty.

But for example languages are not like that. French speak french because french language "memeplex" is the result of memetic evolution. It's bit like - why there's crows and pigeons but not giraffes in European cities. Giraffes just don't "fit" there - in same way speaking swahili is not that common in Paris and urban legends in french are more comon than afrikan stories. Sire you can bring a giraffe to zoo in Paris in the same way you could start a school that teaches swahili and afrikan stories as curiosity but they're not so likely to spread in the "natural memesphere" of Paris.

Are memes toxic? Of course they are not categorically toxic - but some may be. It's like asking "Are genes bad for you?" you cannot exist as human without memes and genes, but faulty ones may make your life harder. Unlike genes memes are infectious though. But say "are viruses or bacteria toxic?" could be quite good analog. If you had no bacteria in you you could not live for long - or would get new bacteria soon. Hawing no memes in you would mean you'we been mindwiped.

Immunization against "toxic" memes can be done with education - ie with other memes - just like you can strenghten your immune system with bacteria. Limiting spread of some memes deemed harmfull or "inappropriate" is called "cencorship". But since human culture is completely dependant on memes and there's no absolute way to judge which memes are good and which are bad and actualyl people's identities are dependent on memes there's strong reasons why cencorship itself may be considred inapproriate ("freedom of speech") .

BTW. I don't think meme theory "ignores the complexity of social interactions". Well it does not tell all - but it would be the same as saying looking at cellular structure of plants or animals ignores the comlexity of "life". It's anowther viewpoint - it does not null the other viewpoints.
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Old 01-31-2012, 05:03 PM   #66
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Default Re: [Toxic Memes] Memetics: rules, power, effectiveness etc.

I'm not interested in the viability of 'real world' memes. Just the idea that if the stuff was real could you be accused of using memes with for thought and malice. Negligence for withholding memes.
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Old 01-31-2012, 07:06 PM   #67
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Default Re: [Toxic Memes] Memetics: rules, power, effectiveness etc.

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I'm not interested in the viability of 'real world' memes. Just the idea that if the stuff was real could you be accused of using memes with for thought and malice. Negligence for withholding memes.
Sure.

In real world there's laws that allow for prosecuting people who spread wrong kind of information already. If "memetic attacks" were real and their existence common knowledge almost surely laws against them would be made.

It might be hard to prove malice though. If someoby is spreading a meme that compel people to do stupid things but also compels them to spread the meme one could always say in defense that one was infected by the meme and compelled to soread it.. "It seemed like a good idea at the time"...
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Old 01-31-2012, 08:12 PM   #68
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Default Re: [Toxic Memes] Memetics: rules, power, effectiveness etc.

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BTW. I don't think meme theory "ignores the complexity of social interactions". Well it does not tell all - but it would be the same as saying looking at cellular structure of plants or animals ignores the comlexity of "life". It's anowther viewpoint - it does not null the other viewpoints.
Memes seem to be duplicated behavior. As such, social interaction memes can spread via social interaction, but other memes can have vectors that have naught to do with social interaction. Covert watermarking via intentional errors for example.
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Old 02-01-2012, 01:54 AM   #69
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Default Re: [Toxic Memes] Memetics: rules, power, effectiveness etc.

We used to watch public information films... they told us stuff not to do because it was dangerous. They don't happen now.

Two young women were killed on a level crossing because they did not expect a second train. Although the lights were still on and the alarm was going the crossing only had 'half' barriers. The company could be held accountable for 'meme' negligence. Do not cross if the barriers are down and the lights flashing with an alarm going. Could parents be held accountable for not telling their children how to cross roads properly?

Meme Crime, don't let ignorance infect you!
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Old 02-02-2012, 12:50 PM   #70
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Default Re: [Toxic Memes] Memetics: rules, power, effectiveness etc.

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It might be hard to prove malice though. If someoby is spreading a meme that compel people to do stupid things but also compels them to spread the meme one could always say in defense that one was infected by the meme and compelled to soread it.. "It seemed like a good idea at the time"...
Witness, for example, planking, which has killed a few people (through lying down in front of trains or falling off of buildings). Planking isn't *very* toxic, but it can be dangerous, especially because people's desire to one-up each other that leads to dangerous situations. But the very nature of the meme makes it difficult to trace who might be responsible for inspiring any particular case, let alone the meme as a whole. The inoculation is to find a prominent person willing to announce that planking is "lame", "uncool", or "so 2010" in such a way that the demographic most likely to engage in planking hears and spreads the message that planking is dumb.

Another example of a toxic meme is suicide. Reportedly, most well-publicized suicides see an uptick in suicide rates for the next month or so. Whose fault is it? Hard to say.
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