01-21-2012, 11:22 PM | #11 | |
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Re: Cover DR and armour penetration
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Mechanically the problem I have with it is this: As I understand it the damage of a weapon is a function of it's energy. The AP rate of a weapon is a function of its ability to assure destructive energy transfer The HP of an object is a function of it's ability to absorb energy destructively (if that same damage happened multiple times the object would eventually fail) The DR of an object is a function of its ability to non-destructive absorb energy (if the same non DR defeating damage happened unlimited times the object would still be fine) so example: 4 guys in full plate stand in a row: Shooter shoots a 2d(200) shot at them. First guy suffers 2d-1 (-1 damage from going through the full plate) damage; and takes say 8 Second guy suffers 2d-2 (-1 from cover dr of first victim -1 for full plate) damage; and takes say 7 third guy suffers 2d-3 damage; and takes say 6 fourth guy suffers 2d-4 damage; and takes say 5 8p4 = 26; max damage from the pistol is 12; but the spell/imbument/etc is not giving the projectile extra energy it is just making it be a VERY effective penetrator (It basically ALWAYS transfers energy destructively; but it has not gained destructive energy); so my original thought process is that: the hit points of the armour still subtract, but the DR is ignored- the hit points of body armour can be happily ignored since it's fractional (IE the weight of the material that the bullet must travel through is so low that it does not even equate to one hit point when using the weight:dr conversion), but large solid objects in the way still provide some cover because they are massive as well as hard; and then I eye-balled what two meters of stone in a bullet wide tube would have 20 hit points. So far however this does not seem to be the consensus. However (Remember the 'wall has 20 hp take that off' was a snap judgement for a scenario I had not foreseen), thinking about this I would postulate a scenario more along the following- the maximum damage that the bullet will cause is 12; it will stop once it has caused that much damage: First guy suffers 2d-1 (-1 damage from going through the full plate) damage; and takes say 8 Second guy suffers 2d-2[max 4] (-1 from cover dr of first victim -1 for full plate) damage; and takes say 7; which is changed to 4, and the bullet stopped somewhere inside him third guy suffers nothing fourth guy suffers nothing Last edited by starslayer; 01-21-2012 at 11:33 PM. |
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01-22-2012, 12:13 AM | #12 | ||
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: Cover DR and armour penetration
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A wizard did do it. Asking it to play nice with physical logic is ignoring the basic character of the effect. Quote:
I think, when you get down to it, your understanding has a lot of issues. Damage as a function of energy? Not even clean for bullets, I don't think, AP bullets aren't lower energy than ball loadings, but get reduced base damage (I think that's done as a way to render a (1.4) AP factor without actually using non-integral AP factors). Damage * AP factor directly describes how far the weapon penetrates through things...at least, for piercing/impaling damage types. For bullets and Deadliest Spring bows, in a way that seems strongly related to reality. Other damage types and weapons mechanically behave the same way, whether or not that really fits their nature. DR for armor relates to how much penetrative potential it can stop. DR for objects...yeah, I guess it's how much it can stop without being meaningfully disrupted. It's not a measure of energy stopped, though. Neither is HP a matter of energy. Just look at bullets, once again! A HP bullet will cause much more HP loss than an AP bullet, even if both have the same energy and neither over-penetrates.
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01-22-2012, 12:42 AM | #13 | ||
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Not in your time zone:D
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Re: Cover DR and armour penetration
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I wanna play with the 4*man-in-a-can numbers but gotta go walk the dogs:( {4*DR7+ave10HP+DR7... Rounding 0.1 up to DR1 seems excessive}
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01-22-2012, 01:00 AM | #14 |
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Seattle, WA
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Re: Cover DR and armour penetration
The issue isn't GURPS, which is doing what it's supposed to do, but rather, it's an issue with trying to reconcile a clearly ridiculous result (on that I think we can all agree) with reality. Trying to do that with an effect created by magic is impossible.
Thus, as others have said, logic really can't be applied to it. No actual attack (i.e. one based on reality as we know it) would ever do 2d(200), thus, trying to model the effects of that weapon realistically will result in nonsense. Anyone remember that old Arnold film, Eraser? They had "x-ray vision scopes" mounted on "railguns" that would shot through basically anything yet stop the instant they hit a human heart and proceed to blow the target several tens of yards backwards and up into the air. For all intents and purposes, that's what you are dealing with here, except your situation actually makes more sense because a wizard literally enchanted the bullet. |
01-22-2012, 07:47 AM | #15 |
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Re: Cover DR and armour penetration
Why are people saying the wall gives DR1? You round down DR with a minimum of zero. In this it highlights the issue even more since you can get really strange results where you fire the bullet through dozens of people without it being affected at all and then it stops inside the target.
This is why things with armor divisors past 10 need to have an established mythology before being used. It's exactly as reasonable for a weapon with an infinite armor divisor to shoot through a planet as it is for it to never overpenetrate. |
01-22-2012, 08:44 AM | #16 |
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Not in your time zone:D
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Re: Cover DR and armour penetration
Good question - is it because DR0 v's #d(0.#) is DR1? I can't think where to find exemplar for something like 110/200 being 0.
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"Sanity is a bourgeois meme." Exegeek PS sorry I'm a Parthian shootist: shiftwork + out of country = not here when you are:/ It's all in the reflexes |
01-22-2012, 01:53 PM | #17 | |
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: Cover DR and armour penetration
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I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident. |
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01-22-2012, 02:05 PM | #18 |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: Cover DR and armour penetration
it's an interesting point. The old 3e system - I think (it's been a while) - would divide damage by the armor divisor as well. 4e got rid of that, but unless it literally IS magic (and I think it might be), then the residual energy after going through the target (and delivering 2d worth of tissue disruption) will be nearly unchanged.
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01-22-2012, 02:10 PM | #19 | |
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Re: Cover DR and armour penetration
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This does mean, by the way, that you should duck behind a cow. :P Any non-magical weapon with AD 200 is super-science silly. The biggest problem for the shooter would be to actually hit something, unless the baddies are a few rows deep pressed against the wall... EDIT: Hmm. The 3rd ed Grimoire is much less silly, as Penetrating Blade is simply -X DR and PD, rather than a divisor. Last edited by Whyte; 01-22-2012 at 02:15 PM. |
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01-22-2012, 02:15 PM | #20 |
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Kentucky, USA
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Re: Cover DR and armour penetration
For over-penetration, I always subtract damage done to the target from the damage total or the attack, no matter what the armor divisor. So line up 3 guys with HP 10 and fire a bullet doing 21 damage with a 200 armor divisor, and it does 10 damage to the first guy, 10 to the second, and 1 to the third. Unless it's some sort of special attack, like radiation or something or a magic deathray. If it's that straight up magical I don't even care about over penetration.
Last edited by Tyneras; 01-22-2012 at 02:20 PM. |
Tags |
armour penetration, cover dr, damage resistance, imbuements |
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