[Mass Combat] Should F/Ranged units count as Marine when on ships?

[vicky_molokh]

Geetings, all!

It's a funny situation: one of the armies has lots of archers and musketeers (and some mages) on their ships. The other only has a squad of mages. Does anybody else think that F units should provide their TS in a naval exchange of attacks? How about mages (Artillery, C3I) also being useful in a naval battle due to long-range 'balls and divination?

Thanks in advance!

[The Colonel]

Would depend how the ships are fighting - if they're doing a standard medieval 'close and board' battle then small arms units of all kinds will be highly effective - I dimly recall a hundred years war naval battle (?Gravelines?) in which victory went to the English at least partially because our longbowmen shot the men aboard the French ships to pieces before they could engage properly, thus pushing the subsequent boarding actions in our favour.
If the ships are mainly engaging at artillery ranges small arms will probably be irrelevant for a large portion of the battle.
As to the mages - divination magic will only be of use at a operation level and above, once you've located the enemy there's not much to be gained in naval warfare. The ability to produce copious ranged fire should be battle winning though, to the extent of making naval battles unwinnable if both sides have it, until someone figures out how to fireproof a wooden sailing ship.
The ability to control the wind speed and direction would also be a vast advantage any time between the galley era and the age of steam.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

Would depend how the ships are fighting - if they're doing a standard medieval 'close and board' battle then small arms units of all kinds will be highly effective - I dimly recall a hundred years war naval battle (?Gravelines?) in which victory went to the English at least partially because our longbowmen shot the men aboard the French ships to pieces before they could engage properly, thus pushing the subsequent boarding actions in our favour.
If the ships are mainly engaging at artillery ranges small arms will probably be irrelevant for a large portion of the battle.
As to the mages - divination magic will only be of use at a operation level and above, once you've located the enemy there's not much to be gained in naval warfare. The ability to produce copious ranged fire should be battle winning though, to the extent of making naval battles unwinnable if both sides have it, until someone figures out how to fireproof a wooden sailing ship.
The ability to control the wind speed and direction would also be a vast advantage any time between the galley era and the age of steam.

Does that mean that in TLs 2 to 4 all bowmen and musketeers should include the Marine feature?

[Polydamas]

Troops trained to fight on a rocking ship's deck, take cover without getting in the way of the sailhandlers, brace before ramming, and so on will probably be more effective as marines than bog standard archers.

The Marine feature is for amphibious assaults, so historically it was very rare before TL 7. I don't know if Mass Combat allows carried troops to add to TS during naval battles, whatever traits they have.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

The Marine feature is for amphibious assaults, so historically it was very rare before TL 7. I don't know if Mass Combat allows carried troops to add to TS during naval battles, whatever traits they have.

Transported marines (or airborne troops) in naval battles provide half TS.

That may be a bit overgenerous in a modern open-ocean naval battle...

[Polydamas]

Ah, its p. 40 of Mass Combat. It looks like low-tech troops with experience as marines are supposed to buy the Marine feature after all, despite the description. All low-tech infantry should have some value in a low-tech naval battle though ... especially ones with F.

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Ah, its p. 40 of Mass Combat. It looks like low-tech troops with experience as marines are supposed to buy the Marine feature after all, despite the description. All low-tech infantry should have some value in a low-tech naval battle though ... especially ones with F.

A low tech battle naval battle in the European tradition was mainly a case of bringing the ships alongside each other and then fighting a battle as normal, so yeah - it would be good for pretty much all units to have some value.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

A low tech battle naval battle in the European tradition was mainly a case of bringing the ships alongside each other and then fighting a battle as normal, so yeah - it would be good for pretty much all units to have some value.

Proposed solution:

Marine units add ½ TS (boarding, capturing islands), as do F units and Art units (they can just shoot at the ships). Marine F and Marine Art units add full TS (or ¾?), because they can do either, and are supposedly adapted to rocking ships. Other units add ¼ TS (defend against boarding at reduced TS).

Opinions?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Proposed solution:

Marine units add ½ TS (boarding, capturing islands), as do F units and Art units (they can just shoot at the ships). Marine F and Marine Art units add full TS (or ¾?), because they can do either, and are supposedly adapted to rocking ships. Other units add ¼ TS (defend against boarding at reduced TS).

Opinions?

If you're house-ruling anyway, you'd probably want to account for cavalry being considerably less useful when unable to use their mounts.

I can't help thinking that we should have rules about using units as make-shift units of something else. Infantry, musketeers, etc. can function as make-shift marines, but not as well as dedicated marine units. Cavalry without horses are make-shift infantry and if they're trained dragoons, they'll be better infantry (but worse cavalry) than cavalry which didn't spend time and money on such training. A unit of pretty much anything can be make-shift irregular infantry, troop quality as engineers or artillery doesn't necessarily translate to being good infantry.

And no, I don't have a ready-made solution. But in my games, I'd eye-ball any elements that were otherwise unable to contribute and judge what other troop type they could function as (albeit make-shift ones).