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Old 10-27-2020, 01:33 PM   #21
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Avoidance versus Resistance [Supers]

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
That kind of avoidance is quite effective, and quite common in the supers games I've played in . . . One of the first supers I ever played was an insubstantial, teleporting specter who could turn invisible. Totally worthless in combat, but hard to kill and a great detective.
J'onn J'onzz, the Martian Manhunter, had the insubstantial and invisible parts of that suite, and was employed (in his human form) as a police detective. But he also was very nearly the equal of Superman in his other powers! Way back when, he had the quirk that turning invisible shut down nearly all of his other powers . . .
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Old 10-27-2020, 04:48 PM   #22
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Default Re: Avoidance versus Resistance [Supers]

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Danger Sense seems to be a must on any build focused on avoiding damage.
Add No Roll Required and at the very worst you can defend any attack at -2, probably higher if you aren't already in the middle of combat. Combine that with Warp to get a character who can stay out of danger the second it pops up.

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"Drawing aggro" is a thing.
That is a huge point. I might personally go for the more avoidance-based characters but a party should switch things up. An all avoidance party is an espionage team, an all tank party is, well, an army of tanks. A supers party wants and often is even accidentally made up of a large variance.
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While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
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Old 10-27-2020, 09:05 PM   #23
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Default Re: Avoidance versus Resistance [Supers]

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
In any campaign, it's always "don't let people know combat started" and "don't let combat happen". Once I learned that waaaaay back in That Other Game 3.5, the DM kicked me out. An unplugged Death Ray isn't killing anyone.
A good DM could work around that, but it could just be that your playstyle, or what you found fun, was too different from what the rest of the group found fun.
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Old 10-27-2020, 09:37 PM   #24
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Default Re: Avoidance versus Resistance [Supers]

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A good DM could work around that, but it could just be that your playstyle, or what you found fun, was too different from what the rest of the group found fun.
Blaming the DM was a bit tongue-in-cheek. I have a hard time finding groups because my playstyle is fairly different. But the point I was trying to make I think still came across in that a fight is much easier to win if your opponents don't know there's a fight to be won.
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Old 10-28-2020, 06:15 AM   #25
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Default Re: Avoidance versus Resistance [Supers]

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post

A supers party wants and often is even accidentally made up of a large variance.
Yep. I very often get things like "detective, martial artist, ranged CQB, ranged sniper, spy, tank" and have to figure out adventures for two combat-avoidant PCs, two finesse-focused assassins, and two straight-up fighters. I have neither the time nor the energy to split up the group, so they just have to live with their choices – whatever I throw at them.
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Old 10-28-2020, 07:49 AM   #26
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Default Re: Avoidance versus Resistance [Supers]

In general, that is where supers of the same CP value tend to top supernormals, as they may have access to abilities that either a) allow them to completely avoid an attack or detection, b) reduce damage enough to survive to recover, or c) return from the dead. That said, a smartly played supernormal can be quite effective in Supers campaigns, they just probably should not be the tank.

For example, a 500 CP cinematic supernormal could have DX 20, IQ 12, Craftiness 4, Stalker 4, Camouflage-20, and Stealth-30 for 289 CP. At that level of Stealth, the supernormal can run across an empty parking lot and past alert guards with an effective skill of 20, and they are less noticeable than most supers with Invisibility. With their DX 20, they can dump another 36 CP to get Guns (Rifle)-30, allowing them to make truly ludicrous shots. Spend another 45 CP on ST 12 and Gunslinger, and they can make such shots while running or in close quarters combat. Spend another 50 CP giving them HT 12, Combat Reflexes, and Luck, and you are at 420 CP, leaving another 80 CP (plus disadvantages and quirks) for customization.

With Guns (Rifle) and Stealth at 30, the character is quite capable of doing some damage to a lot of supers. While they will likely have to leave the Bricks to other supers, they are capable of taking out many other 500 CP characters undetectably from range. Of course, they are really dependant on evading detection and tend to go splat if they are discovered.
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Old 10-28-2020, 08:43 AM   #27
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Default Re: Avoidance versus Resistance [Supers]

A problem with super-normals being that they lack the travel abilities of their powered brethren . . . so when the group moves, it's either in the huge team vehicle or thanks to someone with suitable gifts bringing their allies along. This concentrates everyone in one place, leaving the GM with the option of either never attacking the group en route (which really stakes the heart of a lot of cool plots) or doing so and risking squishing the squishies (which – as I've said – strikes me as player choice and not a GM problem, but not all gamers are mature enough to live with their choices). I've seen the latter in my own games, but my players have always been good about accepting it.

One thing that really helps super-normals is Super Luck, because they can use it as a form of mega-Serendipty in those situations without being generally tough. A specific example in one of my games was to have me roll minimum damage for the PC when the spaceship crashed. I believe damage was 40d. The flying heroes could avoid it by escaping on the wing, the bricks could tank it with DR and HP, and the super-normal invoked Super Luck for plot armor, taking "just" 40 HP because they landed in hay or something, which was survivable given their near-human-maximum HT and HP.

Of course, if you prefer old-timey comics, the standard-issue flight belt or flight ring works, but I find that too cheesy. Then again, many gamers find Super Luck cheesy.
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Old 10-28-2020, 09:33 AM   #28
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Default Re: Avoidance versus Resistance [Supers]

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
or doing so and risking squishing the squishies (which – as I've said – strikes me as player choice and not a GM problem, but not all gamers are mature enough to live with their choices).
I do think that there are arguments to be made for it being a GM problem as well, depending on the type of game and the preferences of the group. And I would also like to make a point that accepting being blindsided with something that kills their character is not necessarily related to a players level of maturity.

On the first point: compelling narratives are usually (arguably even always) character driven and highly personal to those characters. They revolve around the characters who are undergoing them, and they are about those characters struggling with something personal that they don't understand how to deal with but need to learn how to deal with. The games that I've been a part of, either as a GM or a Player, that have become the most beloved and stuck in the memory were usually the ones in which the PCs had encountered problems they were personally invested in, and had to learn and grow as characters to overcome those problems. And the long run games that I've played in that lasted the longest and were the most beloved were the ones where that happened repeatedly, each story feeding into the next stories.

This can be difficult to create, and it's not necessarily what everyone who wants to game is going to gaming for. But if you're a GM who is trying to create these sort of personal story and appeal, your player characters dying (or otherwise permanently ceasing to exist), particularly in unexpected or accidental ways, is extremely undesirable.

Moreover, once a player has lived with a character for a while and undergone several lessons and stories with that character, they can start to really love that character. At that time the character dying needs to be handled with care, and with the consent and preferably the eager equal participation of the player, because that character dying could cause the player very real grief, as well as feeling betrayed by their friend and GM if the way their character died was sudden, shocking, inescapable, and very much a GM call.

Which is well into the subject of my second point: consent at the gaming table. In general the gaming community assumes there is consent for violence, including anything from fantasy violence to cinematic violence to harshly gritty and graphic violence, and that that consent for violence extends to permanent character mutilation/maiming and/or death. However, I don't think that consent should be assumed. The majority of players I personally have encountered have wanted fantasy violence with a level of cinematic heroicness and without having to worry about their characters getting mutilated or killed, especially since the majority of players I've personally known tend to get excited about their character concepts and feel disappointed if they loose out on getting to continue to play that character or if that character gets "spoiled" in some way.
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Old 10-28-2020, 09:38 AM   #29
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Default Re: Avoidance versus Resistance [Supers]

Sure.

But as I've already suggested, I basically go for an Iron Age feel in my supers games – that's on the table up front. Part of that aesthetic isn't precisely "life is cheap," but more "crappy things can happen to anybody, and character development has to do with how they shovel the crap, not the convolutions they or the plot take so they can come out spotless."

Note in particular that this isn't the same as "rocks fall, everybody dies"! There are good plot reasons for each sudden catastrophe, even if those aren't evident to the players at first, and the goal is to have a catastrophe, not to kill heroes.

In a campaign with those aesthetics and goals in play, some level of resistance is recommended. That's why, for instance, the Dark Knight take on Batman wears heavy armor, despite Batman normally being a sneaky, avoidance-oriented detective, not a tank.
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Old 10-28-2020, 11:10 AM   #30
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Default Re: Avoidance versus Resistance [Supers]

Totally. When it's on the table that that's the sort of game the GM is thinking about I usually try to make sure my character is well rounded in terms of having both avoidance and resistance as a failsafe. The spec ops route: be sneaky, but wear armor in case something goes wrong. And if I'm invested enough in my character to get upset by their death then I generally go in for unkillable and/or regrowth. I like the "I can loose the fight, even the mission, but still won't die" feeling of unkillable.
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