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Old 02-21-2020, 02:18 PM   #1
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default can a Knee Strike be delivered with a Thigh or Shin instead of a Knee?

B379 Hurting Yourself says "Apply this damage to the body part you used to attack" and that "Your own DR protects against this damage."

I think this applies to worn DR and not just natural DR (ie how boxing gloves give DR against hurting yourself with punches).

Initially I would assume this to be "Leg" but GURPS Low-Tech forces me to think about this more critically.

LT100's "Armor Locations Table" allows pieces to be worn separately, with a % used to determine "Cost and Weight".

The 100% of Legs is broken down into 50% Shins 45% Thighs 5% Knees, and using random determination 1-3 is a shin, 4 is a knee, 5-6 is a thigh.

In cases where legs are only partially armored (perhaps someone is poor and can only afford to cover certain parts, or for other reasons) it would then be important to know what different ways you could deliver a "Knee Strike" to benefit from DR.

Even for low-damage (less than 5) or to soft targets (lacks hard DR of 3+) this would be important for hitting someone with Spines or Aura.

I know I've seen some moves called as 'knees' even though the knee itself doesn't make contact, like a 'knee to the groin' at super close contact (pelvises are closer than femur length away) is actually just jamming the top of the knee into the groin, and a 'running knee' might actually involve the knee clearing above the target and the shins hitting instead.

In either case it's probably safer since damage to that body part wouldn't have the 'Joints' threshold like I assume knees would.

If it was the shin then should this "Shin Strike" variant follow the same rules as a 'Shin Kick' does on MA112/124.

Shins/Knees are bony and thighs aren't (plus have less leverage) so if a "Thigh Strike" was an allowable option of the "Knee Strike" technique, should it be -1 to damage?
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Old 02-21-2020, 03:15 PM   #2
bocephus
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Default Re: can a Knee Strike be delivered with a Thigh or Shin instead of a Knee?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
If it was the shin then should this "Shin Strike" variant follow the same rules as a 'Shin Kick' does on MA112/124.

Shins/Knees are bony and thighs aren't (plus have less leverage) so if a "Thigh Strike" was an allowable option of the "Knee Strike" technique, should it be -1 to damage?
Shins are bony and at the end of a fulcrum. Thighs are the opposite. Like comparing an elbow strike to a "shoulder strike", try it see how great the difference is in potential force.

A "thigh strike", there is force there, but its not sharp striking force its more like fast pressure. Its a long 'padded' surface that you cant really use that way. Id say at best 50% of a knee strike, and I still feel like that would be a gift. (*I* wouldnt even allow it to do damage. Push/lift/shove sure... damage no.)

You were still talking about a knee strike, just not a properly executed one. But you also talking about a very sensitive target so you dont need the full impact of a "proper" knee to make that work. That I would give a - of some kind, but then a lot of potential + as striking a vital. A thigh isnt worth ruling on IMO, unless you were using exactly that move to try and lift something like a punching bag, again its more a poorly executed knee strike, or its a fast lift.

Last edited by bocephus; 02-21-2020 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 02-21-2020, 04:00 PM   #3
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: can a Knee Strike be delivered with a Thigh or Shin instead of a Knee?

I realized I neglected to use some useful IRL terms that LT included:
*poleyn is armor on the knee
*greave is armor on the shin
To supplement LT, "cuisse" would be the term for armor protecting the shin

One thing I'm wondering is how much the "hardness of the knee" or "hardness of the shin" compared to the "softness of the thigh" would actually matter for guys wearing DR3+ poleyns/greaves/cuisses since the metal is presumably harder than any of those parts of the body.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bocephus View Post
Shins are bony and at the end of a fulcrum. Thighs are the opposite. Like comparing an elbow strike to a "shoulder strike", try it see how great the difference is in potential force.
The "upper arm" (as defined in LT100) is probably a closer parallel here, and I'd make a similar inquiry, because I've seen a bent-arm strike with the upper arm called "elbowing" too.

You're right about there being a huge difference, which is why I mentioned the non-bony aspect and lacking-leverage aspect in my last sentence when discussing a possibly damage penalty.

Do you think maybe it should be more extreme, like -1 damage for non-boney, -1 damage for bad leverage, for a total of -2 damage?

Do you think Knee Strike would get "+1 damage for rigid leg armor" like Knee Strike (MA112) ?

My assumption there (using the Low-Tech breakdown of the Leg into 3 locations: shin/knee/thigh) is that to get the +1 on a Shin Kick you would need to have rigid SHIN armor, so delivering a 'Shin Kick' while ONLY wearing thigh armor would not help.

MA76 never mentions armor influencing Knee Strike damage so I guess that wouldn't be official...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bocephus View Post
*I* wouldnt even allow it to do damage. Push/lift/shove sure... damage no.
This screenshot of a UFC knockout might help explain what I mean here...

When I talk about a thigh strike, I'm still talking about the distal (knee-adjacent) portion of the thigh. So that you still get some decent leverage. Go too high and we risk start getting into the Hip/Pelvis/Groin region of armor protection anyway.

I think of the "knee" location (being described as a merely 5% or 1/20 of the leg) as being pretty much just the patella, the patellar tendon, maybe a bit of the quadriceps tendon?

A lot of things informally called "knee strike" actually make contact with the bottom of the thigh rather than the tip of the knee. There wouldn't be a huge difference in leverage at that point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bocephus View Post
You were still talking about a knee strike, just not a properly executed one.
Poorly executed sounds like accidental, but I could see intentionally doing that if all one had was thigh armor and didn't want to touch a target with bare flesh

Quote:
Originally Posted by bocephus View Post
But you also talking about a very sensitive target so you dont need the full impact of a "proper" knee to make that work. That I would give a - of some kind, but then a lot of potential + as striking a vital.
Do you mean something along the lines like if a sumo used "Shove" (or a kareteka used "Push Kick") while targeting a groin that even though the damage for shoves functions somewhat like Crushing Attack (No Wounding -50%; Double Knockback +10%) that maybe there should be detrimental effects other than knockback to groin-shoving?

The way I figure is... we could still treat shoves and push kicks as having "Blunt Trauma" potential ("No Blunt Trauma" is a separate limitation from "No Injury" for Crushing Attack) so in situations where there's no Penetrating Damage, they could suffer 1 injury per 5 basic damage?

If not as a general rule, it might at least make sense for groin-shoves.

Or if it doesn't actually cause HP loss, at least cause the same shock as if you lost that much HP to Blunt Trauma?
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Old 02-22-2020, 12:59 AM   #4
bocephus
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Default Re: can a Knee Strike be delivered with a Thigh or Shin instead of a Knee?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
This screenshot of a UFC knockout might help explain what I mean here...

When I talk about a thigh strike, I'm still talking about the distal (knee-adjacent) portion of the thigh. So that you still get some decent leverage. Go too high and we risk start getting into the Hip/Pelvis/Groin region of armor protection anyway.

I think of the "knee" location (being described as a merely 5% or 1/20 of the leg) as being pretty much just the patella, the patellar tendon, maybe a bit of the quadriceps tendon?

A lot of things informally called "knee strike" actually make contact with the bottom of the thigh rather than the tip of the knee. There wouldn't be a huge difference in leverage at that point.
I would say that a knee strike encompasses the region you describe as well as the 3-4 inches above that region on the Femur. Based on what martial arts I have done thats your "groin strike" and thats Knee damage/skill in my book.

That is a Knee strike in the picture. I cant tell if its to the opponents shoulder, laterally to the side of the head, or missed the head and overshot the shoulder... but I would rule that knee strike.

The interesting part is, I cant tell if he lunged directly into the target, or is moving his knee in some kind of arc combined with a lunge. Either way thats an all in attack and he is risking falling if his opponent was faking or not as stunned as he thought. He;s also giving up his defense because hes now in the air fully committed to his forward movement.


Quote:
Do you mean something along the lines like if a sumo used "Shove" (or a kareteka used "Push Kick") while targeting a groin that even though the damage for shoves functions somewhat like Crushing Attack (No Wounding -50%; Double Knockback +10%) that maybe there should be detrimental effects other than knockback to groin-shoving?

The way I figure is... we could still treat shoves and push kicks as having "Blunt Trauma" potential ("No Blunt Trauma" is a separate limitation from "No Injury" for Crushing Attack) so in situations where there's no Penetrating Damage, they could suffer 1 injury per 5 basic damage?

If not as a general rule, it might at least make sense for groin-shoves.

Or if it doesn't actually cause HP loss, at least cause the same shock as if you lost that much HP to Blunt Trauma?
Yes thats what I meant but I see the problem isnt the physics but the definition of where knee ends and thigh begins. Because of the physics of human movement a knee strike is exceedingly difficult to deliver as a lunge directly at a target. It gets its power from the anchor at the hip, so its moving in an arc with the striking surface not so much the patella as the end of the femur.

In your picture there is no multiplier applied to his force. Its just going to be body weight and leg strength to launch himself. That's not really good martial arts, its not completely ineffective, but its not a strong technique.

There are attacks where you are close contact grappling and can deliver that "patella" strike, but that power comes from arching your entire body (at the waist) into the opponent while pulling him or using him as leverage towards you driving the knee in. Those attacks also keep your one foot firmly on the ground.

I cant see ever attempting that from a arms length as in the picture, if you did, it would be all in and you have a good chance of falling or giving up any defense.

For me when talking about striking the "thigh" starts where the quadriceps start to get more bulk, below that is Knee, perhaps just not as effective depending on exactly where but thats a knee strike (poorly executed)
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Old 02-22-2020, 03:44 AM   #5
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: can a Knee Strike be delivered with a Thigh or Shin instead of a Knee?

We can entirely avoid the question of where the knee begins/ends by focusing on the armor aspect, which is really my central concern here, whether or not you have some versatility in striking surface if you had limited protection.

Firstly, we know there is a move called the "Shin Kick" which gets +1 damage when wearing rigid leg armor.

I posit we slang-term a "Greave Kick" because if you are wearing a greave on your shin, you're actually connecting with the greave instead of the shin. It's an alternate name to help distinguish the unique factors (+1 to damage, and DR protecting the shin).

Based on that, I will invent these names based on my idea of "Knee Strike" variations that connect with different pieces of worn armor:

"Cuisse Strike" (thigh below)
"Poleyn Strike" (knee below)
"Greave Strike" (shin below)

Also wondering what kind of variability exists with the kicking technique. Feet is the most basic, MA clarified shin... apparently you can even do a knee attack with it using the kicking rules, so thighs (cuisse) are the only non-addressed portion of the leg I guess.
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