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Old 12-22-2019, 04:42 PM   #1
Sorenant
 
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Default [Powers] Multiplicative Modifiers and "Combination Modifiers"

What I'm calling "combination modifiers" for lack of official term are the modifiers that requires another to be valid. For example, Emanation + Area Effect, and Aura + Melee Attack. These modifies becomes a "meta modifier" with a specific value, like Area Effect 1 + Emanation being +30%.
However, when switching to multiplicative modifiers they don't work like that anymore, Area Effect 1 + Emanation without any other modifier becomes 20%.
Should those cases be an exception to the usual multiplicative modifier rules and be "combined" before proceeding to modified value calculation?

My case: Telekinesis 10 (Area Effect 1, +50%; Emanation, -20%; Independent, +70%; Cannot Affect Self, -20%; Visible, -20%; Accessibility, not in combat, -20%)
Using MM normally it will cost 22 points.
If combined before the cost will be 40 points.
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Old 12-22-2019, 05:00 PM   #2
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Default Re: [Powers] Multiplicative Modifiers and "Combination Modifiers"

Either approach is valid, but I'd be strongly inclined to treat the minimum enabling Enhancement (for Emanation, that's Area Effect 1) and the Limitation as a single modifier.

Actually, keeping with the theme of Multiplicative Modifiers (namely, that the Limitations make the Enhancements less useful, hence them effectively reducing the costs of those as well as that of the base trait), for Limitations where the enabling Enhancement comes in levels, I'd be tempted to apply it to each level - Area Effect (Emanation) becomes a +30%/level Enhancement. That doesn't change the cost for your example, but if you wanted an 8-yard radius, that's Area Effect 3 (Emanation) +90%, rather than Area Effect 3 +150% and Emanation -20%.
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Old 12-22-2019, 09:07 PM   #3
Sorenant
 
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Default Re: [Powers] Multiplicative Modifiers and "Combination Modifiers"

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I'd be tempted to apply it to each level - Area Effect (Emanation) becomes a +30%/level Enhancement.
Thanks for the reply!
I had not thought about this option and despite not following any preexisting rule, I think it certainly makes sense and make a good middle ground.
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Old 12-22-2019, 09:21 PM   #4
Mark Skarr
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Default Re: [Powers] Multiplicative Modifiers and "Combination Modifiers"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorenant View Post
What I'm calling "combination modifiers" for lack of official term are the modifiers that requires another to be valid. For example, Emanation + Area Effect, and Aura + Melee Attack. These modifies becomes a "meta modifier" with a specific value, like Area Effect 1 + Emanation being +30%.
However, when switching to multiplicative modifiers they don't work like that anymore, Area Effect 1 + Emanation without any other modifier becomes 20%.
Should those cases be an exception to the usual multiplicative modifier rules and be "combined" before proceeding to modified value calculation?
As someone who uses Multiplicative Modifiers religiously, I don't think so. Emanation isn't just limiting Area Effect, it's modifying the entire ability. Melee Attack isn't limiting just the Aura, it's the entire ability. Making them into "Metatraits" seems to be wasted.

It's easiest to see with Aura: making it a "+50%" enhancement instead of a +80% and -30%, it's artificially inflating the value of, say, Armor Divisor, or Cyclic. It's basically saying, "hey, this ability can do multiples things during a round, both on your turn and when your enemy is attacking you. BUT, it only works in direct contact." Multiplicative Modifiers is helping you recoup some of the points that would be spent on the enhancements that are also hampered by Melee Attack.

Emanation is, basically the reverse, it's "You have an area effect ability, but it can only work in an area specifically around you. You can't target it in another area. It's those wide-area auras."

While you're free to rule however you want, I would say that it isn't something that should be changed without completely reworking the values.
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Old 12-23-2019, 04:14 PM   #5
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Default Re: [Powers] Multiplicative Modifiers and "Combination Modifiers"

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Originally Posted by Mark Skarr View Post
As someone who uses Multiplicative Modifiers religiously, I don't think so. Emanation isn't just limiting Area Effect, it's modifying the entire ability. Melee Attack isn't limiting just the Aura, it's the entire ability. Making them into "Metatraits" seems to be wasted.

It's easiest to see with Aura: making it a "+50%" enhancement instead of a +80% and -30%, it's artificially inflating the value of, say, Armor Divisor, or Cyclic. It's basically saying, "hey, this ability can do multiples things during a round, both on your turn and when your enemy is attacking you. BUT, it only works in direct contact." Multiplicative Modifiers is helping you recoup some of the points that would be spent on the enhancements that are also hampered by Melee Attack.

Emanation is, basically the reverse, it's "You have an area effect ability, but it can only work in an area specifically around you. You can't target it in another area. It's those wide-area auras."

While you're free to rule however you want, I would say that it isn't something that should be changed without completely reworking the values.
Interesting point of view, thanks! Could you tell me more about your experience with Multiplicative Modifiers, please? Did it ever cause any problem?
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