08-25-2015, 09:38 PM | #21 | ||
Join Date: Oct 2004
|
Re: [Spaceships] Heat Signature, Cloaking Device, and Stealth Hull
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
08-25-2015, 10:52 PM | #22 | ||
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands
|
Re: [Spaceships] Heat Signature, Cloaking Device, and Stealth Hull
Quote:
Quote:
But "stealth in space" is not one of those things. But when we say "Stealth in space is impossible," of course we're slapping an unspoken asterisk of "Unless something happens that we don't know about." What if ships can float around in a lower dimension that makes them invisible to EM emissions? What if they can "translate into dark matter?" What if they can use advanced telepathy to paint their starship in "Ignore me!" telepathy-paint that makes people forget they ever saw it? If we discover something like this, then yeah, sure, stealth in space becomes possible, which is not something GURPS ignores (it's got cloaking devices right there in Spaceships). But until that's discovered: Stealth in space is impossible*
__________________
My Blog: Mailanka's Musing. Currently Playing: Psi-Wars, a step-by-step exploration of building your own Space Opera setting, inspired by Star Wars. |
||
08-25-2015, 11:13 PM | #23 |
Join Date: Oct 2004
|
Re: [Spaceships] Heat Signature, Cloaking Device, and Stealth Hull
There are so many other problems with spaceships as depicted in adventure games it never ceases to amaze me why people want to throw down the gauntlet on this one. But you did it anyway.
|
08-26-2015, 12:01 AM | #24 | |
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands
|
Re: [Spaceships] Heat Signature, Cloaking Device, and Stealth Hull
Quote:
Why does it matter? Real space combat will look nothing like what you see in "adventure games." It will feature radiators, it will not feature stealth, there won't be any gravity, they probably won't even happen on "ships" at all, and the cute bridge bunny certainly won't wear a skirt. So? As you point out, lots of adventure games feature that sort of stuff. If we want that, we can play that. I do want that, so I do play it. But does it matter that it's not real? You know that elves aren't real either, right? Do you run into fantasy threads and argue that perhaps one of our cousin races actually managed to survive into the early dark ages and that's the origin of the "elf" myth? Does that even need to be said to justify a fantasy game featuring elves? There are so many flavors of sci-fi that it's not even funny. I like hard sci-fi, so I spend a lot of time on places like Atomic Rockets and I read up on orbital mechanics and I watch things like Moon. I also like wild and wooly space opera: I love to play FTL or Master of Orion, and I think DS9 is the best Star Trek and I'm baffled and disappointed that Netflix managed to lose Farscape. But I don't need the first to justify the second. They're different genres and they both appeal to me, and I understand how and why they appeal.
__________________
My Blog: Mailanka's Musing. Currently Playing: Psi-Wars, a step-by-step exploration of building your own Space Opera setting, inspired by Star Wars. |
|
08-26-2015, 02:25 AM | #25 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
|
Re: [Spaceships] Heat Signature, Cloaking Device, and Stealth Hull
Quote:
I think it's really very much up to the individual GM where they are set. Note that a -8 (TL-10 stealth) means you have to get about twenty times closer to the stealthed ship to detect it. If stealth needs help, I'd say it'd be by raising the threshold at which it stops working, so that low-powered thrusters and power supplies of some sort can be used without negating it. For stealth that's really hard to spot, you need cloaking. I assume that this is intentional.
__________________
Rupert Boleyn "A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history." Last edited by Rupert; 08-26-2015 at 02:30 AM. |
|
08-26-2015, 02:44 AM | #26 | ||
GURPS FAQ Keeper
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyïv, Ukraine
|
Re: [Spaceships] Heat Signature, Cloaking Device, and Stealth Hull
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
08-26-2015, 07:01 AM | #27 | |||||
Join Date: Oct 2004
|
Re: [Spaceships] Heat Signature, Cloaking Device, and Stealth Hull
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||||
08-26-2015, 07:40 AM | #28 | ||||
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands
|
Re: [Spaceships] Heat Signature, Cloaking Device, and Stealth Hull
Quote:
I think the word betrays a bias, but the real problem here is how you're arguing. It would be like if there was a flash in the night and a house was destroyed. And someone claimed a UFO did it. When countered that this is nonsense, the person might say "Well, you don't know, it could be." I could almost see that argument, it's the sort of argument we might make for humanoid aliens: We have no evidence that they couldn't be, so they could be. But what if we found an arsonist who confessed to putting bombs inside the building, and we found further evidence that this was done by human hands, and the UFO-fan snorted and said "Well, police have been wrong before, and confessions can be coerced. It's all a cover-up!" Well... okay, sure, but at this point you're making claims in the face of evidence, with nothing to actually back it up. What makes your version more likely than the official story? Our evidence points very strongly towards stealth in space being impossible, and for current practical purposes, it's impossible. Thus, for a near-term sci-fi game, the statement "stealth in space is impossible" is perfectly, and based on our current understanding of physics, that won't change when we get to TL 9+, so it remains a valid statement that you can apply to any hard sci-fi setting (as hard sci-fi means "based on our current understanding of science.") Which brings me back to the "optimistic" slip. I can see no reason to conjecture that there could be stealth in space unless you were heavily invested, emotionally, in there being stealth in space, but that seems an odd thing to invest so heavily in. Why fight this particular fight? Do you disagree that a realistic depiction of space combat in the near future shouldn't feature stealth? Do you disagree that modern stealth technology has no real application in space combat? Do you disagree that barring a "miracle," an unknown unknown suddenly popping out, that there's no real way to change this in the future? Do you disagree we currently have no practical model for how this would happen, so it must naturally come from something we don't know, our "one miracle" of science fiction? If you don't, then why are you arguing here? What are you trying to achieve? If you do, could you please elucidate exactly where you disagree? Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
My Blog: Mailanka's Musing. Currently Playing: Psi-Wars, a step-by-step exploration of building your own Space Opera setting, inspired by Star Wars. |
||||
08-26-2015, 09:35 AM | #29 | |
Join Date: Oct 2004
|
Re: [Spaceships] Heat Signature, Cloaking Device, and Stealth Hull
Quote:
|
|
08-26-2015, 09:46 AM | #30 | |||||
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands
|
Re: [Spaceships] Heat Signature, Cloaking Device, and Stealth Hull
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You don't disagree that stealth in space is TL^, or that it's effectively impossible with current understandings of technology. You don't disagree that the various minor tactics that maybe sort of might kind of work are extremely limited and usually impractical for all the reasons someone on Atomic Rockets might cite. And when asked to clarify your position, you refuse to explain, calling such requests "comical" and note your impressive resume (to prove, I presume, why you are above such questions)? So what are you trying to do? What are the point of your posts? If you're not arguing against our point, what point are you trying to make?
__________________
My Blog: Mailanka's Musing. Currently Playing: Psi-Wars, a step-by-step exploration of building your own Space Opera setting, inspired by Star Wars. |
|||||
Tags |
cloaking device, detection, heat signature, spaceships, stealth hull |
|
|