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Old 11-01-2011, 08:05 PM   #21
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Wizard Vows

Sometimes people cite Canon 18 of the Fourth Lateran Council (Pope Innocent III, 1215), but it's a bit of a stretch.

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18. Clerics to dissociate from shedding-blood

No cleric may decree or pronounce a sentence involving the shedding of blood, or carry out a punishment involving the same, or be present when such punishment is carried out. If anyone, however, under cover of this statute, dares to inflict injury on churches or ecclesiastical persons, let him be restrained by ecclesiastical censure. A cleric may not write or dictate letters which require punishments involving the shedding of blood, in the courts of princes this responsibility should be entrusted to laymen and not to clerics. Moreover no cleric may be put in command of mercenaries or crossbowmen or suchlike men of blood; nor may a subdeacon, deacon or priest practise the art of surgery, which involves cauterizing and making incisions; nor may anyone confer a rite of blessing or consecration on a purgation by ordeal of boiling or cold water or of the red-hot iron, saving nevertheless the previously promulgated prohibitions regarding single combats and duels.
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Old 11-01-2011, 08:10 PM   #22
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Default Re: Wizard Vows

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
What Tolkeinian roots? Wizards in D&D had Vancian roots.
If you read the original edition of Chainmail, it's pretty clear that the treatment of wizards, like that of elves, dwarves, and dragons, is taken straight from Tolkien. Most of the spells listed there are things that Tolkien shows a wizard using. The Vancean magic system was grafted onto D&D.

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Old 11-01-2011, 08:11 PM   #23
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Default Re: Wizard Vows

Martin Luther was opposed to clergy "bearing the sword", but in this case he wasn't talking about edged weapons vs. blunt weapons; he disapproved of clergy being actively involved in warfare period; (as some of his fellow reformers did during the Peasant's War)
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Old 11-01-2011, 08:39 PM   #24
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Default Re: Wizard Vows

I like the idea of using point values for secrets to determine the worth of a vow better than the suggestions used in the book. IF you break your vow, you should acquire a disadvantage worth twice the cost of the vow (at least until you make amends or pay it off).

If the guild will revoke his license so that he essentially has a -4 reputation amongst guild mages and can be jailed for practicing his craft that should be worth 5pts for the (-10pt) rep possibility and then half the cost of the enemy you may have chasing after you for practicing in civilized lands...
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Old 11-01-2011, 10:04 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Dragondog View Post
In Dragonlance, the only weapons wizards use are staffs and daggers. And they only wear textile armor, if that. If I turned these into vows, what would they be worth?

Vow: Wizard Weapons Only - The only weapons you use are staffs, daggers, and knifes.

Vow: Wizard Armor Only - The only armor you use is textile armor.

Both of them seem to each be as restrictive as No edged weapons [-10]
I wouldn't. While in standard GURPS, the weapons and armour of wizards are explained by the lack of wizards with the time and inclination to become body builders and the existence of the Staff spell, the even more restrictive rules of D&D are best represented as a limitation on your Magic Aptitude.
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Old 11-02-2011, 01:39 AM   #26
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Default Re: Wizard Vows

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
I wouldn't. While in standard GURPS, the weapons and armour of wizards are explained by the lack of wizards with the time and inclination to become body builders and the existence of the Staff spell, the even more restrictive rules of D&D are best represented as a limitation on your Magic Aptitude.
The weapon restriction, at least, is explicitly a social rule rather than part of the nature of magic. Wizards who don't follow the Towers' rules do use non-traditional weapons (Knights of the Lily carry swords, I know).
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Old 11-02-2011, 02:56 AM   #27
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Default Re: Wizard Vows

Not that I haven't found the discussion illuminating, but most of it has had nothing to do with my initial question.

I'm not looking to mirror D&D, I'm looking for game world color. So the traditions of using these weapons and armor have nothing to do with magic per se, its completely a social/traditional thing.

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Originally Posted by Faolyn View Post
It's been a while since I played D&D, but IIRC, the reason they were so limited in weapons is that they supposedly didn't have the time to learn combat skills, so they only weapons they could use were simple and relatively light bonk-or-stab things. I doubt that counts as a Vow in GURPS terms. The armor thing was (again IIRC) because metal screwed up the "flow" of magic. That could be seen as a limitation on Magery.

If you actually want it to be a Vow, what happens if they break it? Do they get shunned by other mages or lose their ability to cast magic, or what?
You could say the same thing about not using edged weapons, but that is a vow.

IDHMBWM, but IIRC you only get points for Vow if you cannot break it.

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Originally Posted by mhd View Post
Well, at least in GURPS you can "buy it off", i.e. you can say that "in my campaign, Wizards have these compulsory disadvantages" and if the player can give a reason why he doesn't have these (and/or trades them in for another set), he's good to go. Unless it's about the actual magical metaphysics or something like that…

For Dragonlance, I can certainly see the point. It had a pretty brutal system for Wizardry. Once you reach a certain, erm, level of your abilities, you had to take that horrendous test that might kill you. If your campaign starts in a CP range where this can't be taken for granted, "Vow: Have to take test that might ruin or kill me" is certainly in order…
(And If I'm not mistaken, they did hunt you down if they noticed you've become too powerful and didn't subject yourself to their silly classifications)
It's tradition. You don't have to take the vows, but there are consequences for those that don't.

The campaign takes place after the Test, at least for focused wizards. And yes, being a Renegade is an option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LemmingLord View Post
I like the idea of using point values for secrets to determine the worth of a vow better than the suggestions used in the book. IF you break your vow, you should acquire a disadvantage worth twice the cost of the vow (at least until you make amends or pay it off).

If the guild will revoke his license so that he essentially has a -4 reputation amongst guild mages and can be jailed for practicing his craft that should be worth 5pts for the (-10pt) rep possibility and then half the cost of the enemy you may have chasing after you for practicing in civilized lands...
An interesting concept. It's been a while, so I need to check what happens to those that do not follow these traditions

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
I wouldn't. While in standard GURPS, the weapons and armour of wizards are explained by the lack of wizards with the time and inclination to become body builders and the existence of the Staff spell, the even more restrictive rules of D&D are best represented as a limitation on your Magic Aptitude.
What if the person isn't a wizard. What would the Vow be worth then? In my mind there's a difference between not having learned how to do something yet, and perhaps you never will, but you could if you wanted to, and a Vow never to learn/use it. Not using edged weapons is a valid vow after all.

Last edited by Dragondog; 11-02-2011 at 03:29 AM.
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Old 11-02-2011, 10:20 AM   #28
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Default Re: Wizard Vows

Ugh, thinking about this for a while, pricing Vows correctly is very messy.

First of all, I'd look at two broad aspects of a Vow:
Is it completely within your control or can outside forces make you break the Vow? Compare "Always try to help the poor" with "Always help the poor". You will break the latter at some point if the universe is against you. (This is related to how Secret works against you. It's not just about keeping your mouth shut, but the universe trying to uncover your secret on a roll of 6 or less on a 3d6.)

Then consider the effect of the Vow while you adhere to it:
That's some disadvantage. Vow ("Never speak") is essentially Cannot Speak (Mute). Vow ("Pray for 2 hours / day"), is somewhat like Extra Sleep 2 hours / day.

Then consider what happens when you break the Vow (willingly or not). This is some new disad that lasts for a certain period. The Basic Set and Vows from the Chi-based power modifier or for Clerics seems to assume something like a 1 month quest to restore your Vow. But it could range from a day of misfortune to permanently losing all your Magery.

Factor in how easy it is to break the Vow. "Never speak" is trivial to circumvent in an emergency, so are various forms of Pacifism or weapon restrictions. (Just grab a better weapon and put on non-textile armor.) If you have fastened your entire life (say, this gives -1 to ST and -1 to FP, as you need some effect of this Vow), there is little reason to suddenly give it up. The ST won't come back any time soon, the FP might be back on the next day. More extreme cases might require you to rebuild your life (and character sheet), in which case you could have just as well bought off the disadvantage.

Then comes the pricing:
A Vow that you can willingly keep forever is worth at most as much as the disadvantage it gives you while you keep it. It might be worth significantly less if you can break it easily and the penalty is light. Half of the disad value for something easily breakable seems appropriate for the month of recovery.

A Vow that the universe can make you break is worth the above plus a fraction of the disadvantage you gain when you break the Vow.

That's really the best guideline I can come up with.

So, for the examples in this thread:
Not using certain weapons / armor is maybe a quirk each for a low ST mage. It's also easy enough to break in an emergency. (Use a spear with staff skill or shoot a crossbow from default with lots of aiming and Luck or wear heavy armor when meeting the assassin at night.) Consequences are presumably loss of Magic Powers for the typical duration of a few weeks.
From this, I'd say it's a Quirk (Wizards don't like metal weapons & armor) [-1].

If you permanently lose Magery or suddenly die or have to retire, it still would be only [-2] (the full value of these equipment restrictions) because it's entirely within your choice to not use these weapons. This assumes that if someone puts you into chainmail while unconscious, that this doesn't count as breaking the Vow.

If even touching such weapons or being forcefully put into armor gives you severe penalties, the Vow becomes a more severe disad. Say, metallic armor destroys your Magery (but only if you wear it) and this is a well-known weakness of wizards and someone can force you to put on armor ... Then if you break this Vow you acquire the 50 point Disad equivalent to losing your Magery and Spells permanently. However, to make you break this Vow you would have to be at the mercy of someone else, so at that point people could just as well kill you ... So maybe only 10% of the gained disads apply, giving you a [-2 + -5] Vow.

As a comparison, a Secret on average shows up in 10% of the game sessions, and you can try to prevent its revelation and nobody has to subdue you just to make your secret public. The Secret is worth 50% of the disads that permanently replace it. So something that probably shows up just as often but is much harder to work against you should be worth a lot less. That's why I chose 10% of the new disad.

With this in mind, some of the Vows in the Basic Set seem badly priced ... The "no edged weapons" [-10] is just crazy. Yes, it's the most important class of weapons (in TL3), but many fighters can live just fine with spears or hammers or using blunt sword-like things if necessary. Well, the GM could always screw you by only dropping +5 swords in the loot or using encounters that are immune to anything but cutting damage, but that would be weird.

On the other hand, the Vow ("Never Speak") [-10] seems to be reasonable compared to Cannot Speak ("Mute") [-25].

Regards
Ts
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Old 11-02-2011, 02:45 PM   #29
Dragondog
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Default Re: Wizard Vows

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ts_ View Post
Ugh, thinking about this for a while, pricing Vows correctly is very messy.

First of all, I'd look at two broad aspects of a Vow:
Is it completely within your control or can outside forces make you break the Vow?

[snip]

Then consider what happens when you break the Vow (willingly or not). This is some new disad that lasts for a certain period. The Basic Set and Vows from the Chi-based power modifier or for Clerics seems to assume something like a 1 month quest to restore your Vow. But it could range from a day of misfortune to permanently losing all your Magery.

Factor in how easy it is to break the Vow. "Never speak" is trivial to circumvent in an emergency, so are various forms of Pacifism or weapon restrictions. (Just grab a better weapon and put on non-textile armor.) If you have fastened your entire life (say, this gives -1 to ST and -1 to FP, as you need some effect of this Vow), there is little reason to suddenly give it up. The ST won't come back any time soon, the FP might be back on the next day. More extreme cases might require you to rebuild your life (and character sheet), in which case you could have just as well bought off the disadvantage.
By RAW, Vows cannot be broken. Even in an emergency. The player wants his character to say something, but he has Vow (Keep silent at all times) the character cannot say anything. If the player tries anyway, I'll overrule him.

Same thing with Pacifism, it cannot be broken. Same thing with weapon restrictions. If the only weapon you have available is one you have Vowed not to use, you will not use it.

Quote:
Then comes the pricing:
[snip]
So, for the examples in this thread:
Not using certain weapons / armor is maybe a quirk each for a low ST mage. It's also easy enough to break in an emergency. (Use a spear with staff skill or shoot a crossbow from default with lots of aiming and Luck or wear heavy armor when meeting the assassin at night.) Consequences are presumably loss of Magic Powers for the typical duration of a few weeks.
From this, I'd say it's a Quirk (Wizards don't like metal weapons & armor) [-1].

If you permanently lose Magery or suddenly die or have to retire, it still would be only [-2] (the full value of these equipment restrictions) because it's entirely within your choice to not use these weapons. This assumes that if someone puts you into chainmail while unconscious, that this doesn't count as breaking the Vow.

If even touching such weapons or being forcefully put into armor gives you severe penalties, the Vow becomes a more severe disad. Say, metallic armor destroys your Magery (but only if you wear it) and this is a well-known weakness of wizards and someone can force you to put on armor ... Then if you break this Vow you acquire the 50 point Disad equivalent to losing your Magery and Spells permanently. However, to make you break this Vow you would have to be at the mercy of someone else, so at that point people could just as well kill you ... So maybe only 10% of the gained disads apply, giving you a [-2 + -5] Vow.

As a comparison, a Secret on average shows up in 10% of the game sessions, and you can try to prevent its revelation and nobody has to subdue you just to make your secret public. The Secret is worth 50% of the disads that permanently replace it. So something that probably shows up just as often but is much harder to work against you should be worth a lot less. That's why I chose 10% of the new disad.

With this in mind, some of the Vows in the Basic Set seem badly priced ... The "no edged weapons" [-10] is just crazy. Yes, it's the most important class of weapons (in TL3), but many fighters can live just fine with spears or hammers or using blunt sword-like things if necessary. Well, the GM could always screw you by only dropping +5 swords in the loot or using encounters that are immune to anything but cutting damage, but that would be weird.

On the other hand, the Vow ("Never Speak") [-10] seems to be reasonable compared to Cannot Speak ("Mute") [-25].

Regards
Ts
There are no game mechanical penalties for breaking a Vow, as they cannot be broken. Not even in an emergency.

A Vow has the same cost no matter who you are. No matter if you're low ST or high ST. Warrior or wizard.

I'm looking for costs based on RAW, not costs that disregard it.

Wizards may like swords and metal armor. They may even love them and collect them. But they will not use them in combat. It's not the same thing.
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Old 11-02-2011, 03:07 PM   #30
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Default Re: Wizard Vows

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Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos View Post
Also remember, you want to bring the setting to GURPS, not the system, the reason this system who shall not be named only allow knife and staff for wizards is because both are simple, but not as good as a sword(at least not in that system), in GURPS you don't have these problems.
Except the restriction is part of the setting for Dragonlance. There was some ancient mystical pact which was the reason that wall wizards only used those weapons.

Of course the system restriction inspired it, but unlike other D&D settings Dragonlace bothered to explain it in they setting rather than just ignore the conisdeance.
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