5.56mm MK318 mod 0

[General Lee]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Yaw will always be "attempted" in flesh for spitzer/ogive bullets, assuming exit doesn't occur first. The first thing that goes for smaller rounds is the fragmentation, though the bullet will often break in two at the cannelure if it has one. Then, at still lower velocities, that stops happening too, and you're only left with the yaw effect. The most common occurence of apparent failure to yaw is when the initial tipping of the bullet just changes the bullet's course, resulting in no effective yaw, but a really funky wound. The bullet tries to yaw, but can't/doesn't cut through flesh sideways like what happens at higher velocities.

From highest to lowest V, then:

yaw and fragment into many bitty bits
yaw and fragment into a few pieces, often two at the ridge used to seal the case to the bullet (cannelure)
yaw and eventually assume base-first orientation, no fragmentation
yaw, but change course and continue point forward in some oddball pattern
Doesn't even yaw

Hollow points/soft points more or less go like this:

Hit, expand and punch through the wound. Maybe the base of the bullet breaks off as a secondary fragment, but usually not.
Hit, fail to expand, and maybe continue in oddball pattern. Usually just hit fail to flatten and go right through.

Obviously, manufacturers spend (successfully) a lot of effort to make the expansion happen reliably. Plastic points, exposed lead, and hollow points all designed to do the trick.

Now, I`m confused.

Originally Posted by Tactical Shooting, p.78

Hollow-point ammunition, including any of the variants (soft point, pre-fragmented, home-made dum-dum, etc.) with similar effects, is the premier choice for use against unprotected humans, and in service with most police agencies the world around.

It fares poorly against body armor, and against car bodies and windshields (pp. 30-31). On the other hand, HP typically means that overpenetration and ricocheting are less of an issue – an advantage in urban combat.

So, indeed bullets that have some form of pre-fragmentation measures, like cannelure, and casings that split upon impact are treated like HP in-game.

The funny thing is that BB looks that neutralize some of the drawbacks of the HP round.

It makes me think that "better ballistics characteristics" intended by the Brass is for unarmored targets, like encountered in Afeghanistan. For that case, Mk318 Mod 0/1 is excellent.

[lexington]

Originally Posted by General Lee

Now, I`m confused.



So, indeed bullets that have some form of pre-fragmentation measures, like cannelure, and casings that split upon impact are treated like HP in-game.

The funny thing is that BB looks that neutralize some of the drawbacks of the HP round.

It makes me think that "better ballistics characteristics" intended by the Brass is for unarmored targets, like encountered in Afeghanistan. For that case, Mk318 Mod 0/1 is excellent.

A cannelure isn't prefragmention, it's a groove to help the bullet fit in the case that happens to also be the weakest point (so if the bullet does break it will tend to be there).

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by General Lee

Now, I`m confused.

.

The "spitzer/ogive" types of which Douglas speaks are rifle bullets. Indeed, almost all of what he says is about rifle bullets.

The TS quote you put up is much likelier to be referring to pistol bullets. Law Enforcement yses rifles far less often than pistols.

Pistol bullets seldom behave like rifle bullets after pentration. The have a different range of shapes (mostly in terms of "aspect ratio") and a much lower velocity.

Most military rifle bullets are technically of the Full Metal Jacket type (FMJ). They aren't designed to fragment or yaw really. Moslty they aren't designed to be anything but cheap to produce. They yaw because of basic physics and they fragment because of velocity, mass and jacket thickness.

FMJ pistol bullets are too short to yaw much (and they have less effect if they do yaw) and they don't fragment in flesh normally. You basically get no expansion or wound enhancement at all. Pistol bullets won't do a lot of thing rifle bullets do so HP is much more attractive. You do still need a certain minimum depth of penetration for efficent wounding though

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

You do still need a certain minimum depth of penetration for efficent wounding though

Which most pistols have trouble achieving even with non-expanding rounds. Expanding rounds are very common for hunting rifles -- they have enough power to penetrate even after expanding, and because they fire relatively slow and heavy bullets, they're less likely to fragment on their own.

[Irenaeus]

Originally Posted by Anthony

It seems to impute magical 'detect living flesh' properties to inert bullets.

So all they need for a working design is to enhance the bullet with a spell? Sounds like they need to move production to a high-mana area.

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

....still less breathless than "eXtreme shock" add copy.

Ok, that was funny.

I find this thread very educational, by the way.

[HANS]

Originally Posted by General Lee

Sort of OFF-TOPIC: Douglas, you could tell me what you (TS playtesters, editors) have in mind with government issued HP-BB rounds for RRA LAR-15 and M-16 rifles in p.79 (Tactical Shooting)?

I can tell you what I had in mind (neither the playtesters nor the editor had anything to do with this): the ammunition that the FBI is actually using. Which is commercial bonded expanding ammunition like the Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. That is HP-BB in GURPS.

Cheers

HANS

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Which most pistols have trouble achieving even with non-expanding rounds..

Maybe if you dilute the "most" in "most pistols" with the vast horde of low caliber Saturfay night specials. FMJs of both 9mm and .45ACP will easily exceed the 18" that is the max penetration the FBI gives credit for. That's the "overpenetraion" soem people are trying to avoid.

Expanding ammo (Jacketed Soft Point or JSP wehn you go tot he gun store) is common for humnting rounds becasue it's so much easier to achieve with rifle velocity and rifle bullets have even more overpentration potential than pistol bullets.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Maybe if you dilute the "most" in "most pistols" with the vast horde of low caliber Saturfay night specials. FMJs of both 9mm and .45ACP will easily exceed the 18" that is the max penetration the FBI gives credit for.

Hm, was just checking that. Yeah, looks like FMJ will, it's the more common JSP type loads that won't.

[ronom]

Originally Posted by HANS

I can tell you what I had in mind (neither the playtesters nor the editor had anything to do with this): the ammunition that the FBI is actually using. Which is commercial bonded expanding ammunition like the Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. That is HP-BB in GURPS.

Cheers

HANS

This is also the USMC's SOST round.

[General Lee]

Originally Posted by HANS

I can tell you what I had in mind (neither the playtesters nor the editor had anything to do with this): the ammunition that the FBI is actually using. Which is commercial bonded expanding ammunition like the Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. That is HP-BB in GURPS.

Cheers

HANS

Thank you HANS. Now I`m satisfied, because you give me something to compare with.

OFF TOPIC: I didn`t mean to offend your copyrights...when I say playtesters, editors, I mean all involved with the book, including you. Also, congratulations one more time, I really appreciate your job and buy your books whenever possible, but always before the others.

Originally Posted by ronom

This is also the USMC's SOST round.

Indeed, a good source:

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2010/0..._ammo_021510w/

Compared to the M855, SOST rounds also stay on target longer in open air and have increased stopping power through “consistent, rapid fragmentation which shortens the time required to cause incapacitation of enemy combatants,” according to Navy Department documents. At 62 grains, they weigh about the same as most NATO rounds, have a typical lead core with a solid copper shank and are considered a variation of Federal Cartridge Co.’s Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw round, which was developed for big-game hunting and is touted in a company news release for its ability to crush bone.