11-10-2015, 03:06 AM | #11 |
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Land of the Beer, Home of the Dirndls
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Re: New GURPS Hardcore Battle system (fan made)
Weapon speeds have been done since the time of the ancients (AD&D1), but I'm still not sure whether that properly models an actual real world concept.
I doubt that in a real world situation you'll get much difference between someone stabbing with a dagger than with a rapier or spear. You'll get some difference between swings and thrusts, but even that gets really muddled when you consider all the "non-attack" movements the weapon makes in a turn (parrying, feinting, overcoming reach). So you'll have to include all kinds of combo maneuvers, different degrees of stop thrusts, ripostes etc. If it's done for game balance reasons, i.e. making every weapon interesting to PCs, that might be a good idea, if a bit complex. But for realism's sake? |
11-10-2015, 03:53 AM | #12 | |
Stick in the Mud
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Rural Utah
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Re: New GURPS Hardcore Battle system (fan made)
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For example, I believe it was George Silver who made distinctions between what he called The Time of the Hand, The Time of the Foot, The Time of the Arm, etc. Basically, an attack made just by moving your hand tends to be the fastest, the arm to the elbow slightly slower, the whole arm slower still, any of those combined with a small step longer, etc. But in general you're correct, weapon speeds are done in games occasionally for balancing purposes, and because in actual combat there is far too much variation to really put into rules. You'll have brief moments, in GURPS terms, 1-3 seconds of a flurry of activity (I'm one of those that think even 2 attacks per second can be a bit slow) followed by 3-10 seconds of Evaluation, then another shorter time of flurry of activity. But also in my experience with HEMA most 1v1 fights tend to be over within 1-6 blows, usually within about .5-15 seconds. Edit: However, I also don't consider the evaluate time, if taking more than about 3 seconds, to be in combat any longer.
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MIB #1457 Last edited by sjard; 11-10-2015 at 03:57 AM. |
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11-10-2015, 03:55 AM | #13 |
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Re: New GURPS Hardcore Battle system (fan made)
It would be an easy GM call to rule that even an unknowing target gets a cover bonus from the shield, if it is in the way. Or simply limit the targets the sniper can aim at:
"Nope, you are not going to hit him in the arms or torso. Your available targets are his left leg and his head. Take your pick. Anything else and you will be hitting his shield for sure." That being said, your Shield DB as a penalty to the attack roll is actually what we had been using in our houserules, too. Easy to remember, which is a bonus, and works just as well in melee as with missiles. You might wish to lower the DB addition to the Block (we used DB/2), or even eliminate it altogether, or shields will become even more uber than they already are in GURPS combat. |
11-10-2015, 04:25 AM | #14 | |
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Land of the Beer, Home of the Dirndls
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Re: New GURPS Hardcore Battle system (fan made)
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While I might be faster doing stabbity-stab-stab against a static pole with an icepick than with a spear, things look different when I try to feint at the face, than stab the thigh, hold two people at bay etc. Apart from treating things holistically (within a turn or even over several ones), you'd also have to define what rule terms really are. The old "what is a parry really" debate... And then there's the matter of granularity. The Last Gasp has the same issue. While it might be more exhausting to swing an axe than a dagger, is it really twice as exhausting? So you either increase the range (double digits enough?), or you treat the differences as rounding errors. Olympic fencing is fast, too. But in both cases, the risks of dying are pretty minute, which tends to skew things slightly... |
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11-10-2015, 05:24 AM | #16 |
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Estonia
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Re: New GURPS Hardcore Battle system (fan made)
Also you might want to balance your games weapons to make it more gamey - but truth is some weapons just are plain better.
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11-10-2015, 06:52 AM | #17 | |||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: New GURPS Hardcore Battle system (fan made)
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Absolutely a situation that the AP system was designed for (as has already been suggested) Quote:
However IMO GURPS models this in two different ways 1) Weapons that are 0U and or become unready after use. Both of these rules stop you freely attacking and defending with those weapons at the same rate as others. 2). The reach mechanism that drastically effects what weapons are used when. Now this doesn't change who quickly they attack in theory, but it does effect how often they attack in practice Quote:
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11-10-2015, 08:33 AM | #18 |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: New GURPS Hardcore Battle system (fan made)
I) As already mentioned plenty of times, this issue is solved rather handily by AP. Of course, that doesn't mean there can't be other ways to do it.
II) This was one of the issues I "fixed" with my Initiative Overhaul. Unfortunately, even that more-simplified version is rather unwieldy in play. Still, I think I got the scaling for weapons about right, and it's much less harsh than yours. In that, the base cost for a punch is 40 IP, the base cost for a kick is 45 IP. Weapon attacks have a base cost of 60 IP, +5 for swings, and +5 per yard of Reach. Having high ST can reduce costs - -5 IP for having 1.5xMinST, -10 IP for 2xMinST, and -15 IP for 3xMinST (basically, -5 IP for every +1 in A Matter of Inches). You can also pump more or less IP into an attack for a bonus or penalty - you get a +1 to hit for every +10 IP (maximum is +2/3 cost), and you suffer a -1 for every -5 IP (minimum is 10 IP). You can also split a single attack into a Rapid Strike - divide the base cost by 10, round up, and apply this as a penalty to each attack. If this Rapid Strike involves alternating weapons (as a Dual Weapon Attack or similar), you divide by 7 instead. For defenses, Parries are -35 IP relative to a thrust with the weapon (minimum 10 IP), Blocks are -25 IP, and Dodges are 10 IP. +1 to defense is +5 IP (maximum of double cost), -1 to defense gets you -5 IP (once you're at 10 IP, the penalty is doubled). Getting back to your system, I'd suggest each character having some reserve that is depleted by attacking and defending. Divide the above costs by 10 to determine how they deplete the reserve. For fractions, round up, but note they can get their first reduction at a reduced price. For example, a punch depletes 4 points, a kick depletes 5, a thrust or swing with a broadsword depletes 7, and so forth. Meanwhile, an unarmed Parry costs 1, while a Parry with that broadsword costs 3, and so forth. Each +1 to cost is +1 to hit (and I'd actually just switch the maximum to +4, rather than the +2/3 cost) or +1 to defense (maximum +2), and you can get a -1 to cost for a -2 to hit (-1 to hit for the first -1 to cost for fractions) or -1 to defense. Once you've hit a cost of 1, dropping to 0 is -4 to hit or -2 to defense. Rapid Strikes have no additional cost, but impose a penalty equal to their base cost for each additional attack. Use 2/3 this value, rounding up, if alternating weapons. So, above, a character who splits one broadsword swing into two suffers a -7 on each attack, and the cost of the maneuver is 7. If he were instead wielding two broadswords, and attacking with each of them, the penalty would only be -5 (cost would still be 7). Characters with Weapon Master or Trained by a Master should halve the above penalties, and when calculating initial cost drop fractions rather than rounding up (so a character with appropriate Weapon Master only pays 6 to thrust with a broadsword, rather than 7). For the reserve itself, let's call it the Action Reserve (AR). Each character has AR equal to Basic Speedx2. Melee attacks and defenses deplete AR as above. Ranged attacks cost 2 AR for firearms and the like (and you can typically only get a +1 for spending extra AR), while throwing weapons cost the same as using them in melee would. Readying a weapon is -2.5 to AR cost relative to thrusting with it. Moving your full Move costs 5 AR (fractional movement has fractional cost; you get one free Step and/or Retreat each round). For recovering AR, you automatically recover 10% of your maximum (minimum 1) every round you aren't Stunned, Unconscious, or similar. Taking Evaluate or Wait maneuvers increases this to 30% (minimum 2), while taking a Do Nothing maneuver increases it to 50% (minimum 3). You can actually exceed maximum AR, up to doubling it, but while above maximum the above numbers become -10% (that is, you lose 10% each round), +10%, and +30%. Characters typically start combat at full AR, although ambushes and similar may result in them starting with a fraction of this. You cannot go below 0 AR - meaning while at 0 AR, all of your actions must take a penalty to drop to 0 cost. Optionally, Injury and Pain can deplete AR. Use the rules from The Last Gasp, replacing AP with AR. III) See this thread, specifically this Krommpost. I should note that shields realistically enhance Parries above and beyond the effects of merely providing Cover, so applying DB there is still realistic. It does make the Shield skill a bit less attractive, however, so reducing the DB for Parries and Dodges may be appropriate - -1 DB should work out alright. Last edited by Varyon; 11-10-2015 at 08:37 AM. |
11-10-2015, 10:52 AM | #19 | |
Stick in the Mud
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Rural Utah
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Re: New GURPS Hardcore Battle system (fan made)
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As for HEMA... unfortunately insufficient data exists, so we simply cannot know if it skews things slightly or greatly, or at all.
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MIB #1457 |
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11-10-2015, 03:32 PM | #20 | |||||
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Brasil
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Re: New GURPS Hardcore Battle system (fan made)
Nice! I see a lot of great ideas here! :)
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I actually thought of a shield as moveable cover. New rule: 7.2*) Shield A shield provide cover equal to its DB to a user defined hit location. Adjacent hit locations get a cover equal to DB/2 rounded down. The user may change the hit location as a free action during his turn. If the shield is used to block a blow in a particular hit location, the user may move the shield cover to that particular location as a free action. Combat Example 9: Tom is wearing a 3 DB shield. In his turn, he decides to cover his torso with it. Now, attacks to his torso are at -3 and attacks to his head, legs and right-arm are at -1. At Jerry’s turn, he decides to attack Tom’s face. Tom blocks its blow and now can chose to leave the shield cover at his head. If he makes this decision, consecutive attacks made by Jerry (or any other attacker), are at -3 to hit Tom’s Face and -1 to hit Tom’s torso.
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"The handlebar mustache. It's not right for every occasion. Unless, that is, you find yourself drafted into an old-timey bare-knuckle boxing match." [HR] Tactical Combat Overhaul: house rules for adding depth to attack speed mechanics |
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Tags |
battle, combat, fan made, house rules, shield |
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