Expert Skill (Pneumatology) and Hidden Lore (Spirits)

[Humabout]

What, mechanically, is the difference between Expert Skill (Pneumatology) and HIdden Lore (Spirits)? Would you differentiate these in game, and if so, how?

[Faolyn]

Originally Posted by Humabout

What, mechanically, is the difference between Expert Skill (Pneumatology) and HIdden Lore (Spirits)? Would you differentiate these in game, and if so, how?

The description for Expert Skill (Conspiracy Theory) says that it's the "study of interlocking networks of conspiracies" and that it "does not include hidden inner secrets, which are the province of Hidden Lore." Hidden Lore says that it "represents knowledge that is lost, deliberately hidden, or simply neglected." The description of Hidden Lore (Conspiracies) it's "factual knowledge...not the ability to analyze conspiracies."

So to extrapolate, I would assume that Expert Skill (Pneumatology) refers to knowledge gained via study of the sort that anyone can do, and you could get this skill via mundane research, without the need to actually even believe in spirits. But Hidden Lore would involve learning the secrets of the Spirits directly from them (or legitimate spiritualists, or the gods or demons, etc.).

[Lord Carnifex]

Originally Posted by Faolyn

So to extrapolate, I would assume that Expert Skill (Pneumatology) refers to knowledge gained via study of the sort that anyone can do, and you could get this skill via mundane research, without the need to actually even believe in spirits. But Hidden Lore would involve learning the secrets of the Spirits directly from them (or legitimate spiritualists, or the gods or demons, etc.).

Right. A character would pick up Expert Skill: Pneumatology through a course of study in specialized anthropology, literature, folklore, and comparative religion. Probably Jungian and Campbellian psychology, too. He'd be able to answer questions about what humans believe about spirits, where the come from, what they're like, and how to interact with them. Note that no spirits actually have to exist in the game world for this skill to exist, because it's about human beliefs, myths, and philosophy.

Hidden Lore (Spirits) would be gleaned from actually interacting with spirits or those who do. It can only be learned if spirits actually exist in the game world, and only by those who can gain an actual working knowledge of them.

So, for instance, a successful roll in ES: Pneumatology will tell you that in the Roman tradition, baleful spirits can't pass through crossed paths, while the Chinese believe spirits are baffled by sharply turning paths. Meanwhile, a successful role on Hidden Lore (Spirits) will tell you that the spirit that is currently possessing your best friend is a minor servitor in the court of Bal-Shem-Koor, can only occupy people who have been recently burned, and doesn't care a whit about what the Romans or the Chinese believe.

[Humabout]

Ah, thanks. It looks like HIdden Lore is far more suitable than any of the expert skills for what I'm doing. Perhaps a specialized Pneumatology for the local region might compliment well, though.

[Flyndaran]

Theoretical vs. practical.

[Anaraxes]

Also, the setting tends to dictate whether there is any Hidden Lore. Ye Olde Fantasy Game tends to have magic as expert skills, not as Hidden Lore. (There may or may not be yet other lore that is Hidden Lore, but the magical technicians don't need to study it; more likely found in the sage or bard types.)

The conspiracy/monster hunter genre is the other way around.

Not all of the Expert/Lore/Occultism/Thaumatology/Ritual Magic skills fit into all settings equally well, and aren't really intended to necessarily co-exist.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Humabout

What, mechanically, is the difference between Expert Skill (Pneumatology) and HIdden Lore (Spirits)? Would you differentiate these in game, and if so, how?

I'd say not much. Despite the confusing text in Basic for Hobby, Professional and Expert skills, these are intended to be "Generic Easy, Average and Hard skills we forgot". They cover whatever the GM or author inventing the skill wants them too. Hidden Lore is similarly a user defined skill, distinguished from those three only by it's contents not being widely known, though in official products it seems to have undergone much the same shift as Occultism, which actually means almost exactly the same thing.

If information about Spirits is openly known in the setting, Expert Skill (Pneumatology) could, and probably should, cover the stuff Hidden Lore (Spirits) would in another setting.

[Flyndaran]

That's wildly different than all the official definitions I've read.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

That's wildly different than all the official definitions I've read.

Still, I think that was the authorial intent, Kromm has said so at least once (in the Professional Skill (spy) thread IIRC).

There are a few user defined advantages and disadvantages in 4e too - I think providing hooks to hang new stuff needed for setting book on that wouldn't require creating "new" advantages, disadvantages or skills was a minor 4e design goal.

[Flyndaran]

If it's not an official errata then author's intent means nothing when it goes against R.A.W.
I don't mean that to sound combative to you or Kromm. It's just that interpreting vague wording is one thing, and flat out arguing with the R.A.W. is something entirely different.
Your interpretation sounds much more fun, but for this forum R.A.W. should be the base "language" and any house rules always stated up front.