Garrote: 'a skill shouldn't have a mandatory penalty attached'?..

[Adina]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Incorporating a thought from a different thread, perhaps my friend was basically doing kumdo with no default and hadn't spent her point yet. Our martial arts training did two things: (a) gave us DX training in the type of movement we'd be doing in kumdo, and (b) allowed us to have a default to begin with.

I would say that our dance training did two things also: (a) gave us DX training in balance, footwork, and quick movements, and (b) we were used to _learning_ whole body movement which was a distinct help(1) [this would probably also count as DX training in GURPS].

(1) At least at beginning levels anyway.

JeffM

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kromm

The target gets no active defense if you genuinely surprise him. The rules for active defenses assume he isn't surprised.

Ohkkay. It's just that I assumed garroting someone is not normally possible without them being unaware:

Originally Posted by B405

You can only use it on an unaware or helpless victim,

Then it says that victims without CR are merely mentally stunned for the purposes of AD, despite the fact that AD is normally not applicable from behind (w/o 360° Vision).

The text is confusing.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Ohkkay. It's just that I assumed garroting someone is not normally possible without them being unaware.

The text is confusing.

That's the only thing that makes sense to me. Any aware defender will be able to get their hands in the way.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

That's the only thing that makes sense to me. Any aware defender will be able to get their hands in the way.

Really?

Why?

Isn't there an AD roll to cover that?

If someone you know and trust is behind you and you suddenly notice that he is trying to garotte you and try to react fast enough to get your hand in the way, isn't that an AD?

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Really?

Why?

Isn't there an AD roll to cover that?

If someone you know and trust is behind you and you suddenly notice that he is trying to garotte you and try to react fast enough to get your hand in the way, isn't that an AD?

The cord itself will have to pass my field of view and move across a longer distance than that of my hands. Not to mention how the instinct to protect the neck is pretty ingrained and rapid.

I would say that if an AD is allowed then hands in the way are all but automatic. Only if said killer is behind someone without their knowledge or trusted to an intimate partner level, would I allow a more normal AD.

There is a reason why so few murderers use garrottes.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

The cord itself will have to pass my field of view and move across a longer distance than that of my hands. Not to mention how the instinct to protect the neck is pretty ingrained and rapid.

I would say that if an AD is allowed then hands in the way are all but automatic. Only if said killer is behind someone without their knowledge or trusted to an intimate partner level, would I allow a more normal AD.

The cord might be already moving when you notice it and your reaction time is far longer than it takes for someone to apply the garrote. And your hands could be anywhere, not necessarily held close to your throat.

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

There is a reason why so few murderers use garrottes.

It requires more premeditation than most murderers possess. Most murders are either spur-of-the-moment kind of things, where someone loses his temper and then immediately regrets it or they are committed by a close associate with whatever weaponry is easy to acquire and handy.

It requires training, strength and the will to literally choke the life out of someone.

A knife is surer, quicker and requires less training. Guns are even easier to use and don't require as much physical contact, prolonged struggle and personal closeness.

Do we really need more reasons?

[Kromm]

A garrote is, all told, a crap weapon. It really only works on an unsuspecting victim from behind, and is worthless if things go south and your assassination attempt turns into a stand-up fight . . . and yet despite all that, it requires significant training to use properly. It excels in only two areas:

1. It's stupidly easy to conceal and get past anything less than a professional body search. If you use rope or synthetic cord rather than wire, even X-rays and metal detectors won't help. If you have to kill somebody who is behind security or in a place where you simply can't take weapons, it's a fair bet. Of course, few would-be assassination victims live behind X-rays and metal detectors 24/7, and a knife to the vitals is more effective. In the real world, assassins seem to find plenty of chances to use guns, too.

2. It's disproportionately deadly for its size and mass. However, it has a very small size and mass, so it doesn't have to be all that deadly to qualify. If your victim is in a place where nobody will think it's odd to carry a stick, a stick choke is more effective. In times and places where a mail glove and a sword aren't out of place, an edge choke is much more effective. Both of the above give you something you can use as a weapon if it turns into a standup fight, and both are big levers that you can use even in frontal combat to trap somebody and choke him. If you're dead-set on throttling someone, a garrote is kind of a crummy choice.

Researching for Martial Arts, I really wanted to make garrotes more useful and interesting. However, they appear to have been specialists' tools from the beginning. Even military training that supposedly covers the garrote mostly suggests just using a knife, or choking the guy with a spade handle or rifle barrel if you must, or just braining him with the spade or the rifle butt. Or shooting him, since a single shot at contact range isn't likely to arouse suspicions in a war zone.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Researching for Martial Arts, I really wanted to make garrotes more useful and interesting. However, they appear to have been specialists' tools from the beginning. Even military training that supposedly covers the garrote mostly suggests just using a knife, or choking the guy with a spade handle or rifle barrel if you must, or just braining him with the spade or the rifle butt. Or shooting him, since a single shot at contact range isn't likely to arouse suspicions in a war zone.

The primary users of the garrote were the thuggees, the cultists of Kali, the Black Mother. Not sure how much valid research is still left on them though, as the revisionists are quite busy wiping away much of that history.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

The primary users of the garrote were the thuggees, the cultists of Kali, the Black Mother. Not sure how much valid research is still left on them though, as the revisionists are quite busy wiping away much of that history.

Well, we certainly have scarves weighted with coins in the weapon table, and a note on who used them. Mind, these are more substantial than garrotes. What sources do survive make clear that victims who weren't successfully strangled were quite frequently bludgeoned as if with a light flail. We have rules for that, too.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Well, we certainly have scarves weighted with coins in the weapon table, and a note on who used them. Mind, these are more substantial than garrotes. What sources do survive make clear that victims who weren't successfully strangled were quite frequently bludgeoned as if with a light flail. We have rules for that, too.

I do remember reading in several places the descriptions of the neck-breaking sash/garrote techniques which went along with the initial grapple, the strangling* was secondary to the neck-snap and the bludgeoning was a tertiary last resort.
Burial then involved digging a small dug cylindrical hole, breaking all major bones, and opening up all major cavities.
(Can't remember or quote my sources though...)

* Which strangling tended to involve placing a knee in between the shoulder blades.