Sapience and the Lack Therof

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Actually in GURPS it means personhood, and people have the potential to rebel.



No, GURPS has IQ 6+ computers that aren't defined as sapient.

That is book specific like THS. Basic call IQ 6+ sapient, period... unless you can direct me to an opposing quote.
THS like to call programs lacking certain extra disadvantages as sapient even if a human with them would still qualify as sapient.
A program cannot violate its programming by definition meaning that it's impossible to make a sapient program by your definition?

Edit: Crud. I wandered back into the thread drift topic. I'm sorry. I'll stop and hope this topic gets moved somewhere I can post as in not chatter.

[Curmudgeon]

Flyndarran re: sapience in GURPS is self-awareness and occurs at IQ 6+.
Sorry, that isn't what the Basic Set says.
B15 How GURPS Works: IQ, Sentience and Sapience
"Sentience is self-awareness. Any being with a GURPS IQ of at least 1 is sentient by definition."
"Sapience is defined as the ability to use tools and language. In GURPS, this requires at least IQ 6."
Technically, by the book, IQ 6 is merely the minimum requirement for sapience to be possible; there is no guarantee that having IQ 6 means you are sapient.

[Flyndaran]

Ok, so it's IQ 6, and what else to make one sapient?
What would you add/remove to/from a human character to remove its sapience without touching IQ?
I can't think of anything from the R.A.W. that would do this.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Ok, so it's IQ 6, and what else to make one sapient?
What would you add/remove to/from a human character to remove its sapience without touching IQ?
I can't think of anything from the R.A.W. that would do this.

Cannot Speak and Hidebound are staples of both Domestic and Wild animals (B263). Most animals also lack opposable thumbs, and while this doesn't speak directly to lack of sapience, it implies that they don't possess brains adapted for fine manipulation.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Cannot Speak and Hidebound are staples of both Domestic and Wild animals (B263). Most animals also lack opposable thumbs, and while this doesn't speak directly to lack of sapience, it implies that they don't possess brains adapted for fine manipulation.

But there are many humans with hidebound and cannot speak, yet still considered sapient.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Ok, so it's IQ 6, and what else to make one sapient?
What would you add/remove to/from a human character to remove its sapience without touching IQ?
I can't think of anything from the R.A.W. that would do this.

Bestial comes to mind. Or Cannot Learn in the other direction.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Bestial comes to mind. Or Cannot Learn in the other direction.

Fruit flies and slime molds have been shown to learn simple things.
But bestial might come as close to non-sapience as gurps gets.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Fruit flies and slime molds have been shown to learn simple things..

I fail to see your point. The question was, what could be given to an IQ 6+ entity that would make it less than sapient. I answered "Bestial and in the other direction Cannot Learn". That many things that are not sapient can learn does not seem relevant to whether lacking the ability to learn might disqualify a being from being sapient.

[Flyndaran]

Cannot learn doesn't fit anything alive other than maybe a very few severely brain damaged people, so it has no place in discussing sapience in general.

[Sindri]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Cannot learn doesn't fit anything alive other than maybe a very few severely brain damaged people, so it has no place in discussing sapience in general.

Nothing alive? Not even plants?