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Old 11-07-2019, 09:05 PM   #31
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Default Re: Changes to Combat Reflexes [Basic]

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
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But you have to ask "overpriced for what purpose"?
Relative to spending the same points on something else that is useful in the same sorts of situation. Commonly that's weapon skill.
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Old 11-07-2019, 09:11 PM   #32
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Changes to Combat Reflexes [Basic]

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Relative to spending the same points on something else that is useful in the same sorts of situation. Commonly that's weapon skill.
<shrug> No matter how high your skill may be it won't let you survive a dozen foes shooting at you. Dodge 15 will.
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Old 11-07-2019, 10:00 PM   #33
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Changes to Combat Reflexes [Basic]

Strangely enough, completely mundane (if extremely high valued and not terribly realistic) characters can have Dodge 16. It just costs around 355 CP (DX 20, HT 20, Basic Speed 12.00, and Combat Reflexes). At that point, it is worth getting Dodge 16 just to get the ancillary benefits from DX 20, HT 20, Basic Speed 12.00, and Combat Reflexes.
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Old 11-08-2019, 05:49 AM   #34
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Changes to Combat Reflexes [Basic]

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
CR really represents no ability actually possessed by humans. The actual ability people have is that they train for particular situations. 'Freezing' in combat is caused by confusion, and if you can match the situation you're in to something you've trained for, you aren't confused so you don't freeze.

The drawback is that the situations you train for either have to be quite generic (in which case your trained response is likely to trigger in situations that are inappropriate but close enough to match the generic) or have gaps (in which case you'll still be confused if it's an unfamiliar situation). This can be somewhat hybridized by having a generic action that's safe (e.g. taking cover instead of returning fire), as diving for cover in response to a backfire may be embarrassing but is unlikely to actually hurt anyone.
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Combat reflexes is a generic extreme resistance to surprise, without bothering to care what the surprise is or what the rational response to the surprising event is. The human brain doesn't work that way.

yep basically all of this

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
I think the question remains, what is your basis for that position?

There's been a lot of work on OODA loops and trained response to certain stimulai

I wouldn't go quite so far as to say CR is no ability possessed by humans, but a slightly more realistic version of it might be having it aspected to the situation you trained and have experience in.

Put it this way it's reasonable to have a well trained and/or experienced fighter pilot to have the GURPS equivalent of CR when piloting their plane in combat, and the same is true for a trained/experienced Infantryman fighting on the ground. But you plonk a fighter pilot in the middle of Fallujah on a hot Saturday night, or an infantry man (who happens to be able to fly) in a F14 patrol hit by an dog fight they likely won't get the same benefits.

The thing is both of those people are still likely to be better than Joe Random off the street would be in either situation even in the situation they didn't have specific experience/training in!

So if you really wanted to go detailed maybe have CR operate at full value in your aspected context and half value in all others.

It's also not just combat, anyone who trains/experiences dangerous/stressful/quickly developing situations could potentially qualify in that context. An experienced mountain climber will observe–orient–decide–act in a changing mountain situation better than most. But they may not get the full benefit of that if someone's trying to ambush them coming home from the pub!


On top fo this when trying to fit this all this into scale of real world observations it not just having CR and not having CR, but also combat paralysis

i.e we don't all fit somewhere on:

"having CR - not having CR",

but:

"having CR - not having CR or CP - having CP"


And on top of that in GURPS terms there are other stats and advantages that can effect how likely you are to react quickly to a surprise or be able dodge etc which means it's hard to categorically test if someone has to have had CR to have reacted in a certain way in a certain situation.


But this is a level of detail possibly to far for a generic advantage that in general is designed to mark out people who likely get into more combat than most people do in real life and do better at "not dying in combat" than the average person on the street.
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 11-08-2019 at 08:57 AM.
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Old 11-08-2019, 07:11 AM   #35
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Changes to Combat Reflexes [Basic]

I am thinking that Combat Reflexes should be on a continuum (this assumes a default Combat Reflexes for PCs and heroic NPCs). Combat Paralysis [-30] > Bystander [-15] > Combat Reflexes [0] > Battle Discipline [15] > Enhanced Time Sense (ETS) [30]. Thus, we have a nice five step continuum.

Battle Discipline is a cinematic advantage that functions as an improved version of Combat Reflexes that allows character the combat functionality of ETS (going first and having access to special manuevers, skills, and techniques) without the other benefits of ETS (accelerated perception and infinite decision time). When they conflict, Battle Discipline is inferior to ETS, meaning that someone with ETS always goes before someone with Battle Discipline (two people with Battle Discipline go in normal turn order). In most settings, Battle Discipline would require one of the four cinematic combat advantages (Gunslinger, Heroic Archer, Trainer by a Master, or Weapon Master) and could be acquired after character creation.
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Old 11-08-2019, 07:34 AM   #36
Stormcrow
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Default Re: Changes to Combat Reflexes [Basic]

Combat Reflexes is the advantage that's in play when the hero, Brock Hardbody, is sleeping in camp, and a minion of the bad guy tries to sneak up on him and steps on a twig. Brock snaps up, gun in hand, and blasts the minion to his doom before the minion can even say "oops."

It's the advantage being used when an enemy soldier shoots a crossbow at the head of Brock's partner, Hunk Powerthighs. It whooshes toward him, and Hunk coolly tilts his head to one side to avoid being skewered through the eye.

When Brock and Hunk are leading their team of soldiers through a narrow pass, their Combat Reflexes are what let them realize that an ambush is imminent, turn, and yell "Down! Down! Down!" before the attack starts.

It doesn't reflect anything particularly realistic. It's not impossible, but if someone is watching that movie and isn't into it, they'll probably think, "Oh come on." The various components of the advantage are thematically related in this way. Breaking it up misses the point. If you're trying to recreate the components separately, of course it'll cost more: you're trying to use more realistic tools to recreate a very cinematic advantage.
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Old 11-08-2019, 07:46 AM   #37
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Changes to Combat Reflexes [Basic]

The problem is that I do not think that it is cinematic. I have known plenty of people in law enforcement and the military that possessed such an ability without PTSD. They do not hesitate, regardless of the situation, and they are nearly fearless because they lack hesitation.
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Old 11-08-2019, 09:38 AM   #38
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Changes to Combat Reflexes [Basic]

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Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
When Brock and Hunk are leading their team of soldiers through a narrow pass, their Combat Reflexes are what let them realize that an ambush is imminent, turn, and yell "Down! Down! Down!" before the attack starts.
I think that that one in particular is more Danger Sense.
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Old 11-08-2019, 09:45 AM   #39
whswhs
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Default Re: Changes to Combat Reflexes [Basic]

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
I am thinking that Combat Reflexes should be on a continuum (this assumes a default Combat Reflexes for PCs and heroic NPCs). Combat Paralysis [-30] > Bystander [-15] > Combat Reflexes [0] > Battle Discipline [15] > Enhanced Time Sense (ETS) [30]. Thus, we have a nice five step continuum.
You lose me right at making Combat Reflexes the 0 point baseline. I don't run combat-heavy campaigns (seriously, back near the start of my career I wrote about the spectrum of my campaigns from combat-light to combat-heavy, and when I described combat-heavy campaigns Peter Dell'Orto commented that his players would consider THAT a "combat-light" campaign). I don't want a set of rules under which nearly all the characters in a lot of my campaigns, and some characters in nearly all my campaigns, would HAVE to use -15 points of their disadvantage budget to take a trait that, to my mind, amounts just to "being a normal human being."

And secondarily, you lose me at including ETS in the spectrum. Combat Reflexes is a (perhaps cinematic) ability that might be seen in an epic hero or the like. ETS is a superhuman power. A god might have it, or a cybernetic entity, or a spirit, or (perhaps) an enlightened martial arts master with years of meditative practice and a collection of siddhis to show for it. A highly trained human being would not.
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Old 11-08-2019, 10:11 AM   #40
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Default Re: Changes to Combat Reflexes [Basic]

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And secondarily, you lose me at including ETS in the spectrum. Combat Reflexes is a (perhaps cinematic) ability that might be seen in an epic hero or the like. ETS is a superhuman power. A god might have it, or a cybernetic entity, or a spirit, or (perhaps) an enlightened martial arts master with years of meditative practice and a collection of siddhis to show for it. A highly trained human being would not.
ETS includes Combat Reflexes, and you can't buy both, so by RAW it is the powered-up version, much like Resistant-/Immune spectrum advantages.
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