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Old 08-27-2016, 04:12 AM   #31
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

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Originally Posted by HANS View Post
I was quite involved in the original peer review playtest of Fourth Edition, but I did not write these rules. I seem to remember that they are David's work, but don't quote me on that.

While I don't find the Rapid Fire rules perfect, I continue to defend them because they give reasonably realistic results with very little input (ie, you don't have to roll for every shot in a burst, you don't have to recalculate the recoil-induced deviation for every shot, etc.)
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This is exactly my point, yes.
Agreed. Getting bogged down in "realism" usually produces rules "fixes" that become utterly unplayable for an actual game. Fourth Edition has its warts - but this isn't one of them. Doug's proposed rules make lower RoF attacks more useful (and that's a bit debatable modeling wise), but it doesn't make things needlessly complex for the sake of complexity itself.

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Just for the record, I've worked for many years as a consultant for one of the largest firearms manufacturers in the world, but not for Jane's. That's all I can and will say about this.
Apologies, I could have sworn you mentioned at one point that you'd worked with Jane's.
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Old 08-27-2016, 08:51 AM   #32
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

Ghostdancer, authority really doesn't work that way. Rules text is what it is and we all can read it, whether or not it's what the author intended it to be. Not that that's relevant here.
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Actually, it is.



Yes. I never said otherwise. Firing more than one shot increases your chance to hit. This is what automatic fire does, in RL and in GURPS. What I said is that the first shot in a burst has the same chance to hit as a single shot from the same weapon, meaning controllability (the issue raised by Erling) is irrelevant for that.
The increase of the overall hit chance of a burst is because the Rapid Fire rules require only one roll, when it would be more realistic (but way less playable) to roll for each shot in the burst, with increasing penalties. The Rapid Fire bonus to the one to-hit roll in automatic fire thus combines several rolls. Hence, the one roll gets a (small) bonus, rather than to make three or five or ten rolls.

Cheers

HANS
Okay, then, I guess I don't understand why you brought it up, since neither GURPS rules nor anything in Erling's post have anything to say about the first shot in particular. (Except the mixed ammunition rules in Tactical Shooting, which don't give extra weight to the first shot, but if they did it would probably invite abuse.)

I'd thought your remark about usually only the first shot hitting meant you were saying subsequent shots shouldn't be effecting the roll to hit, and thus Rcl shouldn't, but clearly that was my mistake.

...What were you getting at?
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Old 08-29-2016, 12:30 AM   #33
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
...
I'd thought your remark about usually only the first shot hitting meant you were saying subsequent shots shouldn't be effecting the roll to hit, and thus Rcl shouldn't, but clearly that was my mistake.

...What were you getting at?
Reading HANS post again again I think he's making two points about rounds in a burst and controllability (Rcl)

1). Rcl doesn't effect the chances of the first round hitting, which is correct

2). Rcl does effect the chances of subsequent rounds hitting, which is also correct



But here's the thing, first has two meanings here. It can be the first round that leaves the gun, and the first round that hits from the burst i.e the one that was most likely to hit. And the abstract way GURPS does rapid fires means that can be different rounds, but in real life they tend to be the same round. And for the purposes of rapid fire rules both are correct at the same time

However overall what gets bit more hazy is that you can fire lots of rounds to partially overcome that effects of Rcl*, because the more rounds you fire in GURPS the rapid fire positive mod can partially counteract the negative Rcl mod.

However IMO this is an artefact of the way the Rcl is per round factor, but rapid fire is per burst factor (as pointed out condensing the entire burst into one roll is trade off for the sake of playability, and involves certain amounts do abstraction in overall effect). Conceptually the two factors do interact in an odd way if you look closely, but the rapid fire rules are about giving a overall realistic effect (with out rolling to it for every round, which you could just do by removing the to rapid fire bonus).


*obviously Rcl builds at a faster rate than the Rapid fire bonus, but as again it does so round by round, where as rapid fire applies once to the entire burst.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 08-29-2016 at 12:50 AM.
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Old 08-29-2016, 01:12 AM   #34
Erling
 
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

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Originally Posted by HANS View Post
Yes. I never said otherwise. Firing more than one shot increases your chance to hit. This is what automatic fire does, in RL and in GURPS. What I said is that the first shot in a burst has the same chance to hit as a single shot from the same weapon, meaning controllability (the issue raised by Erling) is irrelevant for that.
I never claimed that bad controllability should lower overall chances to hit (compared with single shot). I do take into account that the first shot in a burst is no way less accurate than a single shot in semi-auto mode.

Burst and automatic fire are intended to increase overall chance to hit at least once. No one said otherwise. Realistically some weapons are better in full-auto (i.e. in increasing overall chance to hit while rapidly firing multiple rounds) than the others due to controllability. In GURPS increasing overall chance to hit is a function of RoF (Rapid Fire bonus), not a function of controllability. That is, shooting some sort of short-barreled automatic shotgun loaded with rifled slugs while stock folded (Rcl about 5) at RoF 9 augments your chance to hit just as well as shooting H&K MP5 at the same RoF.

I think that limiting Rapid Fire bonus for high-Rcl weapons makes sense and looks realistic. Am I still wrong with that?

Aforementioned stories about machinegunners and M14-users shooting short bursts rather than spraying and praying reinforce this concept: if your weapon's controllability is bad, there's no much benefit from shooting at full possible RoF.
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Old 08-29-2016, 01:21 AM   #35
RyanW
 
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

One point that hasn't been raised is that, even if you don't get a bonus on the attack roll, multiple rounds fired gives a slight increase to the odds of causing a wound. There is a chance of getting two hits, which would require a better defense roll to totally counter.
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Old 08-29-2016, 01:22 AM   #36
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

Short bursts do two things: conserve ammo and keep the barrel from overheating as quickly (which is enough of a problem that nearly every air-cooled MG in the world has a spare barrel as part of its standard kit). The first is related to controlibility, the second isn't.
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Old 08-29-2016, 01:25 AM   #37
Erling
 
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

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One point that hasn't been raised is that, even if you don't get a bonus on the attack roll, multiple rounds fired gives a slight increase to the odds of causing a wound. There is a chance of getting two hits, which would require a better defense roll to totally counter.
Yes, among other things. Rapid Fire not only increases chance to hit, but also provides chance to score multiple hits. This is the other side of the same story, and it doesn't interfere with the initial point.
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Old 08-29-2016, 06:55 AM   #38
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

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So 1-2 shots - no bonus
3-5 shots, +1
6-10 shots, +2
11-20 shots, +3
Then 50 (+4), 100, (+5), 200 (+6), etc.
This would be most appropriate for gatling guns which tend to shoot more accurate when the RoF increases and drops the Rcl to 1.
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Old 08-29-2016, 07:54 AM   #39
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

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I think that limiting Rapid Fire bonus for high-Rcl weapons makes sense and looks realistic. Am I still wrong with that?
The answer for most slugthrowing anti-aircraft systems is "more dakka," so I'd say capping it isn't realistic—otherwise, adding more would be pointless.
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Old 08-29-2016, 08:07 AM   #40
Erling
 
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

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The answer for most slugthrowing anti-aircraft systems is "more dakka," so I'd say capping it isn't realistic—otherwise, adding more would be pointless.
Do they have high Rcl? Even 25x137 autocannon has Rcl 2. I suggested bonus cap only for high-Rcl weapons (i.e, Rcl 3+).
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