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Old 02-26-2012, 11:07 PM   #21
vierasmarius
 
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Default Re: Reign of Steel - Will to Live: Are DR values too low?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Er, you surely wouldn't expect the warhead to have more effect against a better protected target.
Forgive me for not being clear. A tandem warhead is designed to be more effective against ERA than a single warhead. As written, this is not the case - it would be better to just use a single larger shell (ie, one inflicting even 6dx12(10), which should mass roughly the same as the two smaller warheads) than the tandem warhead. Meanwhile, against a target without ERA, the tandem warhead inflicts more damage than a single warhead of the same mass - effectively 6dx14(10). This all feels backwards to me.
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:39 AM   #22
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Default Re: Reign of Steel - Will to Live: Are DR values too low?

I think one of the problems the OP may be having is equating defence with DR. In 4e the ultra-tech vehicales have point defence (PD) lasers to intercept missiles.

Realisticliy, missiles take a second or two of flight time to hit their target.
TL8 tanks lack this feature (though ships do have PD weapons).
If you shoot missles out of the air somwhat reliably, then all you need is DR vs projectile & laser weapons.

I'm not sure how to work the PD on the juggernauts, but I'm sure there are those who will.
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:46 AM   #23
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Default Re: Reign of Steel - Will to Live: Are DR values too low?

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I think one of the problems the OP may be having is equating defence with DR. In 4e the ultra-tech vehicales have point defence (PD) lasers to intercept missiles.
Sadly, UT doesn't really have rules to handle Point Defense weapons. There are rules in Spaceships, but those assume engagement ranges in the thousands of miles, and turn lengths of minutes. They're also by default fired by human gunners. PD for UT vehicles has come up before, and much of the problem comes down to there being no clear statistics for generic robotic weapon systems.
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:59 AM   #24
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Default Re: Reign of Steel - Will to Live: Are DR values too low?

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Originally Posted by vierasmarius View Post
Sadly, UT doesn't really have rules to handle Point Defense weapons. There are rules in Spaceships, but those assume engagement ranges in the thousands of miles, and turn lengths of minutes. They're also by default fired by human gunners. PD for UT vehicles has come up before, and much of the problem comes down to there being no clear statistics for generic robotic weapon systems.
Surely we can do something about that. For example, a TL9 PD turret would have a medium tactical radar (multi-mode) (range 30/3 miles, tracks up to 10 targets) and a point-defense laser (Acc 18, Range 9,000/27,000, RoF 1). Active sensors automatically detect anything in their range with no range penalty (and -2 penalty for every doubling of range), so incoming projectiles are detected 100% of the time at 30 miles (52,800 yards).

One Aim manoeuvre is required to lock-on (gives +3 to unaimed shots, doubles Acc for aimed ones), another Aim manoeuvre gives +36 to skill, and the laser fires on the third turn. Add together the penalties for projectile SM, velocity and range, but with +36 to hit, it's almost guaranteed (assumed that the computer program controlling the turret has Gunner (Beam)-12 or so). Damage shouldn't really matter with such a high-powered laser.

All of this is irrelevant if the projectile/missile can cover 30 miles in under 3 seconds (for which it would need Move 17,600).
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Old 02-27-2012, 03:12 AM   #25
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Default Re: Reign of Steel - Will to Live: Are DR values too low?

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All of this is irrelevant if the projectile/missile can cover 30 miles in under 3 seconds (for which it would need Move 17,600).
The real threat is not cruise missiles striking over 30 miles of open terrain, but ATGM's fired from cover at close range. Of course, "close range" at TL10 is 750 yards for a 64mm missile, and 3000 yards for a 100mm missile. To provide any defense against such threats, a PD system will need the equivalent of ATR or Gunslinger. There are no guidelines in UT for giving such traits to computer-controlled robots or weapon systems.

For an indication of the difficulty involved, check out the Area Defense perk in Gun Fu (pg 17) which allows a cinematic pistoleer to shoot down incoming projectiles as a Parry. He rolls Guns/2 + 3, with a -15 for target size and speed. Enhanced Time Sense is a huge boon (+6) as is Gunslinger (full Acc). A dedicated robotic point-defense gun would function similarly - the exceptions being that the projectile is likely a bit bigger and a bit slower, and ETS and Gunslinger would be provided by advanced computer and sensor systems rather than human grit and chutzpa.
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Old 02-27-2012, 03:34 AM   #26
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Default Re: Reign of Steel - Will to Live: Are DR values too low?

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Originally Posted by vierasmarius View Post
The real threat is not cruise missiles striking over 30 miles of open terrain, but ATGM's fired from cover at close range. Of course, "close range" at TL10 is 750 yards for a 64mm missile, and 3000 yards for a 100mm missile. To provide any defense against such threats, a PD system will need the equivalent of ATR or Gunslinger. There are no guidelines in UT for giving such traits to computer-controlled robots or weapon systems.

For an indication of the difficulty involved, check out the Area Defense perk in Gun Fu (pg 17) which allows a cinematic pistoleer to shoot down incoming projectiles as a Parry. He rolls Guns/2 + 3, with a -15 for target size and speed. Enhanced Time Sense is a huge boon (+6) as is Gunslinger (full Acc). A dedicated robotic point-defense gun would function similarly - the exceptions being that the projectile is likely a bit bigger and a bit slower, and ETS and Gunslinger would be provided by advanced computer and sensor systems rather than human grit and chutzpa.
Yeah, you're right, a 3-second point-defense wouldn't really work. A 1,000 lb laser is overkill vs. ATGMs anyway (you don't need even 1d damage to disable them, let alone 3dx5). However, targeting time can easily be decreased by running three targeting programs (UT p. 149) at the same time (the onboard computer would have to be Complexity 6 or higher - no biggie on TL9) - one to lock-on, one to aim, one to fire. The first two are largely "mental" manoeuvres that could be done with Compartmentalized Mind, and the last one can just take Wait (Point-Defense), which can be activated even on an opponent's turn. Conceivably, a computer would be able to do all of the above in a fraction of a second, and instead of rolling to hit, it makes a Parry like you said.

In game terms, though, such a short-ranged laser system would behave similarly to reactive armour. EMP armour is essentially a type of omnidirectional point-defense anyway, and laser point-defense also works similarly (i.e. making the projectile explode prematurely so that the armour takes only superficial damage). This could be represented by another DR multiplier against missiles and projectiles with muzzle velocity below [some arbitrary velocity depending on how sensitive you want your sensors to be].
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Old 02-27-2012, 04:17 AM   #27
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Default Re: Reign of Steel - Will to Live: Are DR values too low?

Well, there are a variety of ways that you can "kill" a missile with a laser. The one which is most commonly employed today could be described as a "sensor kill", using a laser to fry the sensitive optics of certain guidance systems. This is covered by active ECM, I think, and not all missiles are susceptible to it. Probably the next easiest would be a "maneuver kill", taking out the guidance and stabilizing fins. You could also try to destroy the missile itself by targeting the warhead or fuel, likely triggering a premature detonation. This would be most useful against shaped charges, which must detonate at the correct standoff distance to achieve optimal penetration.

I don't think a DR multiplier really represents these properly. Better, IMO, would be a "Parry" score for the defense system, with success having effects based on the specifics of the system and the missile. For regular HE warheads it would detonate it at a distance, reducing damage as normal. Shaped Charges may see a more dramatic effect, losing both damage and Armor Divisor. I don't know enough about the effective range of shaped charge or EFP warheads to really speculate on the exact numbers.
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Old 02-27-2012, 04:37 AM   #28
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Default Re: Reign of Steel - Will to Live: Are DR values too low?

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Originally Posted by vierasmarius View Post
Well, there are a variety of ways that you can "kill" a missile with a laser. The one which is most commonly employed today could be described as a "sensor kill", using a laser to fry the sensitive optics of certain guidance systems. This is covered by active ECM, I think, and not all missiles are susceptible to it. Probably the next easiest would be a "maneuver kill", taking out the guidance and stabilizing fins. You could also try to destroy the missile itself by targeting the warhead or fuel, likely triggering a premature detonation. This would be most useful against shaped charges, which must detonate at the correct standoff distance to achieve optimal penetration.
:P I'm starting to see why the writers wanted to avoid going into the specifics of point-defense. If a tandem shaped charge missile goes against a reactive armour EMP point-defense vehicle, one has enough variables to give the entire group a headache three times over.

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Originally Posted by vierasmarius View Post
I don't think a DR multiplier really represents these properly. Better, IMO, would be a "Parry" score for the defense system, with success having effects based on the specifics of the system and the missile. For regular HE warheads it would detonate it at a distance, reducing damage as normal. Shaped Charges may see a more dramatic effect, losing both damage and Armor Divisor. I don't know enough about the effective range of shaped charge or EFP warheads to really speculate on the exact numbers.
I think I remember reading about a Power Block/Parry system somewhere (Powers or Psionic Powers perhaps) where, if you used an offensive power to parry, you reduce the damage of the incoming attack by your damage roll (i.e. your damage becomes DR). That might be a bit too cinematic for representing "the specifics of the system and the missile," though, since it suits more cinematic campaigns where two power-wielding characters "lock" powers and the stronger one prevails. In any case, I agree that the effect should not be just "attack deflected" as with a normal melee Parry, unless the missile is shot down at long range. Again, all too complex to make a standard rule on it.
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Old 02-27-2012, 06:47 AM   #29
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Default Re: Reign of Steel - Will to Live: Are DR values too low?

Ulzgoroth has made most of the points I would. I'd also mention that the robots are designed primarily to go against weapons from Ultra-Tech rather than High-Tech.

Several of the robot designs don't necessarily make a lot of sense for general issue in the Final War, but may have been built for specific tactical purposes, and I feel that the Juggernaut is probably one of them. It may well have been designed to do "most of the job of a tank" when tank crews were dying of Ebola Zaire and thus not available to run a cheaper model, perhaps providing relatively expendable protection (e.g. three of them in a platoon commanded by one human-crewed tank); or to shoot down ultra-high-flying reconnaissance aircraft (check out the range on that main gun). It's also clearly a testbed for the experimental particle beam weapon...

(In the "modern day", of course, its main use is as a credible threat rather than an actual combat unit.)
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Old 02-27-2012, 08:06 AM   #30
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Default Re: Reign of Steel - Will to Live: Are DR values too low?

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Originally Posted by vierasmarius View Post
The real threat is not cruise missiles striking over 30 miles of open terrain, but ATGM's fired from cover at close range. Of course, "close range" at TL10 is 750 yards for a 64mm missile, and 3000 yards for a 100mm missile. To provide any defense against such threats, a PD system will need the equivalent of ATR or Gunslinger. There are no guidelines in UT for giving such traits to computer-controlled robots or weapon systems.

For an indication of the difficulty involved, check out the Area Defense perk in Gun Fu (pg 17) which allows a cinematic pistoleer to shoot down incoming projectiles as a Parry. He rolls Guns/2 + 3, with a -15 for target size and speed. Enhanced Time Sense is a huge boon (+6) as is Gunslinger (full Acc). A dedicated robotic point-defense gun would function similarly - the exceptions being that the projectile is likely a bit bigger and a bit slower, and ETS and Gunslinger would be provided by advanced computer and sensor systems rather than human grit and chutzpa.
So... I dont see the problem. Real world TL8 point defence computers have those traits. Anti-ship missile's are NOT cruse missiles, they are much faster.

For the OP's question, there's no issue of point cost (not a pc) just give the Juggenaut the area defense perk.

Also, note that the Juggernauts have discriminatory smell & a host of other sensors. They are unlikly to not be aware of humans skulking nearby. It would know that they may ATGM's. If however, the humans used their brains & ingenuity and DID manage to spoof the Juggernauts sensors, I don't see a problem with them getting a shot before the PD defeces get on-line.
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