[PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I personally would find a gamer oriented discussion of agriculture, economics, medicine, social classes ect. much more useful than weapon stats.

Sure. But it isn't remotely topical for a tech catalog. The Tech books are catalogs, it's really that simple. We're not discussing GURPS Societies here (and not discounting something like that, either).

[DrTemp]

A name like "Fantasy Gear" or something like that might be better.

In any case, I'd be really excited about such a book. In addition to...

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

• Fix the armor weights once and for all
• Have weapon and armor customization rules
• Cover demographics to some extent
• Cover non-military (medicine, agriculture, manufacturing ect.) technology at each TL

... and things such as data for materials such as adamantium, moon silver and orichalcum (expanding on what is given in Fantasy), it could include a better way of handling gameworld economics at low tech levels- for example, by simply giving a price for each TL (which is simply done by adding four columns of prices to the chart) and proposed costs of living per TL (and possibly per degree of a society's organization/urbanization such as Imperial Rome vs Dark Ages).

I wonder, however, who'd be both qualified and willing to write such a gem...

[DrTemp]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Sure. But it isn't remotely topical for a tech catalog. The Tech books are catalogs, it's really that simple. We're not discussing GURPS Societies here (and not discounting something like that, either).

But would that distinction make sense in this case?

I mean, with 240-p.-books, I can hardly imagine filling it all with stat and price charts. Not even 3e Low Tech is only that, it also includes some additional information to allow the reader to understand the environment that the tools were developed for. Why not expand on that a litte for those who might care? Those who just want to look up their customized "chain mail of moon silver" will find it in there anyway, having some 40-80 pages with GM aid of the proposed kind won't bother those people...

[DrTemp]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Of course. Just like Low-Tech for 3e, it'll cover armor, weapons, and non-military tech. And sure, it can make fixes. So far, we're still playing within the 128 pages of Low-Tech for 3e, though. We're just tweaking a few numbers and stats.
[...]

I believe what Sir Pudding wanted to emphasize is the "weapons and armor customization" part, with a very fat C. Low Tech in 3e listed lots of stuff, but it did not tell us how to make a plate armor with twice the DR or one-third the weight, for example.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Not just no, but hell, no. It's a tech book. Tech books are catalogs of tech. Demographics no more belong in Low-Tech or its replacement than in High-Tech. And High-Tech will be a catalog . . . just not "all guns, all the time" this time around. The place for analyses of crops, towns, etc., is appropriate historical worldbooks on e23.

Aren't you confusing tech and gadgets? Three-shift agriculture is technology, but it's not gagdets is what I'm saying. I loved Low-Tech but OTOH I understand if you want to make a profit from the books.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

Aren't you confusing tech and gadgets?

Sorry if I was at all unclear: The purpose of Tech books is gadgetry, yes. This has nothing to do with confusing "tech" and "gadgets." It has to do with there being a long tradition of GURPS books with Tech in the title being catalogs. Note very carefully that I did not discount other books on societies. In point of fact, there's at least one brewing that probably will pick up societies. I'll let the author comment if he wishes. That book isn't a Tech book, that's all.

[Hyrneson]

Frankly, Kromm is right, some of the minutae that power GMs (and I include myself in that group) find cool is dry as dust for most players. Agriculture and population growth and migration patterns are all fine for world building and opperation, but is that what your game sessions are about, is that what the players want?
(Odd vissions of poeple sitting around quietly rolling dice and scribbling on paper swim before my eyes, one triumphantly thrusting his fist in air with a cry of glee, then yelling, "YES! A bumper crop for the shire thanks to three field rotation!!! How many points is that worth?") :)

That data has a place and a use, but I think it belongs in Pyramid. If fact I think that would make a great e23 book, "The Best of Pyramid World Building" or some such.
I'm not going to bust Kromm's huavos on this and I don't think others should either. Face it, when was the last time that Kromm, Pulver, Master, JS, and so on didn't deliver? When did you feel you got screwed to the post? There are always going to be armchair editors (geek varient of armchair quarterbacks) but I have yet to find a book that I didn't get my money worth. These folks are professionals, they've proven their chops, they ask for respectful input and are responsive to their audience. I think they deserve more trust than some folks give them.

RH

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Sure. But it isn't remotely topical for a tech catalog. The Tech books are catalogs, it's really that simple. We're not discussing GURPS Societies here (and not discounting something like that, either).

I agree I been long waiting of something like GURPS Societies as a homebrewer. Ever sense I have was introduced into GURPS quality books its been one of my dream books to get published, and would join my 1e AD&D wilderness survival guide, FASA Star Trek Game Operations Manual, and GURPS Space is "any system World design kit". I would be greatly disappointed that it would treated as Filler for a Tech book 8(

GURPS Fantasy 3ed (For 4th Edition) treatment if anything heightened my Want for this book to be a GURPS book.

Edit: Hyrneson it would not be an in play book, but a design book like Space and Fantasy. A Guide so that you not blind sided by would assumption that take your campaign in a direction you did no want the world to be like.

it for when you PCs start using the Hero's rep for Social Power...

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Besides isn't mithral part of the Tolkien estate?

Mithril might well be. Mithral, however, is a silvery metal, not unlike Tolkein's mithril, that appears in D&D.

[brehaut]

I don't have access to the current low-tech to know if it already has this, but i would quite like to see the coverage of the various types of weapons with good clear scaled diagrams, histories, why they get developed, common usage (both tactics and stance etc), strengths and weaknesses etc. I'm not normally a weapons nut and as a result a sword is an axe is a hammer is a glave. If i had a bit more information than just it does X damage of type Y and reaches Z*, i would be more keen to use this sort of information in my games, especially when designing the military side of a given culture.

Secondly, I don't really see the problem with adding in the fantasy tech element, clearly marked of course. And the book really should have a 'tech' in the title to give it orthogonality with the rest of the series if there are going to be 3 or 4 other Tech books (Bio, High, Ultra).

*yes, i am aware that i am making a gross and unfair oversimplication of a GURPS stat block