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Old 11-16-2017, 06:50 AM   #1
Juca
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Default Enhancing Weapon Attacks

Guys, I'm trying to help a player generate his character, but I'm stuck at one of his suites of power.
His character is a gunmage, he can enhance his pistols with magical powers, like shooting flaming bullets, or fragmenting his shot mid-flight to act like a shotgun.
Now I know that I can use follow-up to make the first one, but what limitation do I use to simulate the fact that he can only enhance firearms? "Follow-up, by RAW, is only for innate attacks or built in attacks. I built it like this:
Incendiary Shot - Innate Attack 1d burn (follow-up +0%, cost fatigue -5%, extra time 1 sec -10%, accessibility [only on firearms] -X%) -> I'm inclined to use this accessibility like a -20% limitation, but I'd like to hear from you guys.
The second is more tricky, it modifies the normal attack by dividing range by 5 (-20%), giving it Rapid Fire 15 (+100%) and reducing damage by half (-X%). I apply those modifiers on what? He will be using his trusted, bonded pistols, almost exclusively, but he does have a long range rifle for sniping. How should I charge this ability?

Thanks, guys!

Note: I do know that a "Powers: Imbuements" or something like that exists, but I don't have it, and, for what I gathered, it uses skills, which don't appealed to me.
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Old 11-16-2017, 08:11 AM   #2
Ketsuban
 
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Default Re: Enhancing Weapon Attacks

Imbuements work the same way as Magery - there's an advantage to buy to get your foot in the door and determine the limitations of your ability, and then skills to determine what specifically you can do. Flaming bullets are the Incendiary Weapon skill; fragmenting a shot in midair is Multi-Shot.

I can't really give you any advice other than "buy Power-Ups 1", because what you're asking for is the textbook definition of Imbuements.
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Old 11-16-2017, 08:12 AM   #3
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Enhancing Weapon Attacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juca View Post
what limitation do I use to simulate the fact that he can only enhance firearms?
Turn the question around -- if the character just had these abilities "built in" as magical (or whatever) powers, what would be the chance that he wouldn't be able to use them? Pretty close to zero, right? But not exactly zero; there will be some games where you try to make it interesting with an "anti-magic zone", opponents immune to magic, and so on. So, not much discount there. The existence of widely-known and common countermeasures ("Dispel Magic") usually counts for -5% on a Power Modifier.

So, what are the chances that this gunmage, all of whose abilities rely on guns as they're central to the character, isn't going to have access to his guns? Again, I'd expect the practical answer to be pretty close to zero. The character can choose whether or not to have his guns, and pistols aren't even particularly hard to conceal. So as with the case of them being straight up magic, there's not actually much of a limitation in play. The player isn't giving anything up to be a "gun mage" instead of a "normal non-gun mage".

You might bump up the limitation if the setting has particularly strict gun control laws, so guns are actually hard to get. (That means some of your adventure time is going to go to acquiring those guns and replacing them. If it's just backstory or always offscreen, it's not a limitation in practice.) Or the setting might have severe constraints on ammo usage -- a post-apoc game where you're counting your remaining six bullets and might never find another, so you're loathe to use them. That would be worth a much heftier discount.


Quote:
The second is more tricky, it modifies the normal attack by dividing range by 5 (-20%), giving it Rapid Fire 15 (+100%) and reducing damage by half (-X%). I apply those modifiers on what?
On the character point (CP) cost of the abilities to which they apply -- the Innate Attacks that implement the "gun" attacks enhanced with spells.

As the text for Reduced Range says, "If applied to a ranged attack that has a 1/2D range, each level reduces both 1/2D and Max." Note that that's not the same thing as having a better chance to hit because you treat the range distance as 1/5 of its actual value, or use 1/5 of the to-hit penalty. It just changes the point at which damage is reduced and the maximum distance you can attempt a shot. If the idea is to make the mage-enhanced attacks hit distant targets better, you might replace Reduced Range with Accuracy. A +4 bonus would correspond to having an effective range of 1/5 the actual distance.

(Strictly speaking, you might want to limit that Accuracy enhancement to apply "only for cancelling range penalties". But since it's pretty darn common to have a range penalty, it would work out to a small difference. Whether or not you want to get into doing the arithmetic for a levelled version of a Limited Enhancement to work out the exact CP difference is up to your interest in that kind of thing.)

Quote:
He will be using his trusted, bonded pistols, almost exclusively, but he does have a long range rifle for sniping. How should I charge this ability?
I'd build the "rifle attack" just like the "pistol attack", except I'd leave out the Reduced Range. Rifles are longer-ranged weapons, after all. You might also give the rifle attack Accuracy, or higher damage than the pistols, as those are also typical differences between pistols and rifles. For pricing, you're probably interested in the "Alternative Attacks" (or "Abilities") rule. Put a bunch of abilities in an AA group. You can only use one ability from that group at a time, and it takes a Ready Maneuver to switch your ability. But you pay CP for the most expensive ability, plus only 1/5 of the others. So, you'd buy the rifle attack (assuming that comes out to be the most expensive), and then the pistol version at 1/5 cost.
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Old 11-16-2017, 08:34 AM   #4
weby
 
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Default Re: Enhancing Weapon Attacks

Follow-Up, Any weapon is +50% in RAW. Personally I use +50% for "any melee attack" or "any ranged attack".

Fire arms are a bit more limited depending on where you are. It is different if you are in in today's England or the wild west. But generally if you have firearms they are superior to other weapons unless you are in a scifi setting where energy weapons might dominate, so the limitation is not all that limiting.

So in a game with low gun control laws I would see fire arms only -5% for a total of +45%. But by raw you have +50% for all weapons so it is a bit more limiting from that so maybe a -10% for a total of +40%.

Note that if guns are hard to get and dangerous to own or similar then the limitation value would be higher.
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Old 11-16-2017, 08:43 AM   #5
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Enhancing Weapon Attacks

There are no particular limitations for firearms. If you want a summonable gun with multiple abilities, it is just the most powerful Innate Attack with multiple alternate attacks. If you want a gadget, add Breakable and Can Be Stolen. If you want a mage who can modify any gun, add Environmental (requires held firearms) to the power, which would probably be a -20% limitation to the attacks.
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Old 11-16-2017, 08:54 AM   #6
Nereidalbel
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Ellicott City, MD
Default Re: Enhancing Weapon Attacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ketsuban View Post
Imbuements work the same way as Magery - there's an advantage to buy to get your foot in the door and determine the limitations of your ability, and then skills to determine what specifically you can do. Flaming bullets are the Incendiary Weapon skill; fragmenting a shot in midair is Multi-Shot.

I can't really give you any advice other than "buy Power-Ups 1", because what you're asking for is the textbook definition of Imbuements.
Seconding this. Imbuements do exactly what you are looking for.
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Old 11-16-2017, 09:06 AM   #7
Juca
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Neverland
Default Re: Enhancing Weapon Attacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ketsuban View Post
Imbuements work the same way as Magery - there's an advantage to buy to get your foot in the door and determine the limitations of your ability, and them skills to determine what specifically you can do. Flaming bullets are the Incendiary Weapon skill; fragmenting a shot in midair is Multi-Shot.

I can't really give you any advice other than "buy Power-Ups 1", because what you're asking for is the textbook definition of Imbuements.
Ketsuban, thanks, but I'm not keen on buying a pdf only for a character, and implementing something in a way that I did not liked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Turn the question around -- if the character just had these abilities "built in" as magical (or whatever) powers, what would be the chance that he wouldn't be able to use them? Pretty close to zero, right? But not exactly zero; there will be some games where you try to make it interesting with an "anti-magic zone", opponents immune to magic, and so on. So, not much discount there. The existence of widely-known and common countermeasures ("Dispel Magic") usually counts for -5% on a Power Modifier.

So, what are the chances that this gunmage, all of whose abilities rely on guns as they're central to the character, isn't going to have access to his guns? Again, I'd expect the practical answer to be pretty close to zero. The character can choose whether or not to have his guns, and pistols aren't even particularly hard to conceal. So as with the case of them being straight up magic, there's not actually much of a limitation in play. The player isn't giving anything up to be a "gun mage" instead of a "normal non-gun mage".

You might bump up the limitation if the setting has particularly strict gun control laws, so guns are actually hard to get. (That means some of your adventure time is going to go to acquiring those guns and replacing them. If it's just backstory or always offscreen, it's not a limitation in practice.) Or the setting might have severe constraints on ammo usage -- a post-apoc game where you're counting your remaining six bullets and might never find another, so you're loathe to use them. That would be worth a much heftier discount.
Anaraxes, thanks for your answer! Some points:

Guns are not less, nor more, restricted than any other type of weapon in the setting, but he can lost his guns, lost access to them, be in a situation where he can't use them (they got a VERY long reload time after all), may be using his sabre or daggers, finally, the power is nowhere usable all the time as without the limitation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
On the character point (CP) cost of the abilities to which they apply -- the Innate Attacks that implement the "gun" attacks enhanced with spells.
So I must build the rifle as a innate attack to get its cost, and then apply the modifiers?
Something like: Rifle (Innate Piercing Attack 3d, increased acc 1 +5%, increased 1/2 x10 +15%, increased max range x5 +10%, limited uses: 1/day slow reload -35% - 15 points. This is the base cost where the other limitations are applied? How should I price reduced damage (half) then?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
As the text for Reduced Range says, "If applied to a ranged attack that has a 1/2D range, each level reduces both 1/2D and Max." Note that that's not the same thing as having a better chance to hit because you treat the range distance as 1/5 of its actual value, or use 1/5 of the to-hit penalty. It just changes the point at which damage is reduced and the maximum distance you can attempt a shot. If the idea is to make the mage-enhanced attacks hit distant targets better, you might replace Reduced Range with Accuracy. A +4 bonus would correspond to having an effective range of 1/5 the actual distance.

(Strictly speaking, you might want to limit that Accuracy enhancement to apply "only for cancelling range penalties". But since it's pretty darn common to have a range penalty, it would work out to a small difference. Whether or not you want to get into doing the arithmetic for a levelled version of a Limited Enhancement to work out the exact CP difference is up to your interest in that kind of thing.)

I'd build the "rifle attack" just like the "pistol attack", except I'd leave out the Reduced Range. Rifles are longer-ranged weapons, after all. You might also give the rifle attack Accuracy, or higher damage than the pistols, as those are also typical differences between pistols and rifles. For pricing, you're probably interested in the "Alternative Attacks" (or "Abilities") rule. Put a bunch of abilities in an AA group. You can only use one ability from that group at a time, and it takes a Ready Maneuver to switch your ability. But you pay CP for the most expensive ability, plus only 1/5 of the others. So, you'd buy the rifle attack (assuming that comes out to be the most expensive), and then the pistol version at 1/5 cost.
I think that maybe you misunderstood my request - I'm not building the guns as powers, they already "exist" in the game world, anyone can buy and use them. What I'm having trouble is on pricing the powers that only work on them!
And the reduced range, yes, I do wanted to cut the range to 1/5, as the power simulates a short range, multi-projectile blast.

Thanks again for the answers!
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Old 11-16-2017, 09:16 AM   #8
Juca
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Neverland
Default Re: Enhancing Weapon Attacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by weby View Post
Follow-Up, Any weapon is +50% in RAW. Personally I use +50% for "any melee attack" or "any ranged attack".

Fire arms are a bit more limited depending on where you are. It is different if you are in in today's England or the wild west. But generally if you have firearms they are superior to other weapons unless you are in a scifi setting where energy weapons might dominate, so the limitation is not all that limiting.

So in a game with low gun control laws I would see fire arms only -5% for a total of +45%. But by raw you have +50% for all weapons so it is a bit more limiting from that so maybe a -10% for a total of +40%.

Note that if guns are hard to get and dangerous to own or similar then the limitation value would be higher.
Nice, where can I find this "any weapon" clause in Follow-Up? Is it in the Characters book?
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Old 11-16-2017, 09:30 AM   #9
weby
 
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Default Re: Enhancing Weapon Attacks

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Originally Posted by Juca View Post
Nice, where can I find this "any weapon" clause in Follow-Up? Is it in the Characters book?
It is a case of "Cosmic, Avoiding drawbacks" modifier, as normally a follow up is only to a given single attack. I first saw it is Powers: Divine favor(page 19 as part of spirit weapon), but have seen it somewhere else too, but cannot remember where.
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Old 11-16-2017, 09:55 AM   #10
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Default Re: Enhancing Weapon Attacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by weby View Post
It is a case of "Cosmic, Avoiding drawbacks" modifier, as normally a follow up is only to a given single attack. I first saw it is Powers: Divine favor(page 19 as part of spirit weapon), but have seen it somewhere else too, but cannot remember where.
It first appeared in the Power Ups Imbuements pdf, and again in the Power Ups Enhancements pdf, and then what you mentioned.
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