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Old 07-15-2017, 04:09 PM   #11
mlangsdorf
 
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Default Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
So.. all mundane metabolic hazards. Most distinctly not "and Magic makes you Fumble your sword".
Body control spells are threats that only affect the living (unless otherwise specified), and Immunity to Metabolic Hazards gives Immunity to threats that only affect living beings. You're the one who is adding "mundane metabolic hazards" in there. There's no distinction in the rules.

Resistant to Metabolic Hazards would of course give its bonus to the HT-based Resistance rolls for most Body Control spells. If you accept my argument that that Body Control spells are metabolic hazards, that's an obvious continuance of the argument.

So Fumble is a weird spell, since it's resisted by DX. By the rules, IMH doesn't affect DX based Resistance. On the other hand, the spell doesn't say that it affects Golems or Undead, so it doesn't, unless that's an editing error.

Since the Choke spell is a Body Control spell (and not an Air spell), I would guess that it works by preventing a living subject's lungs from working, and should be treated as a metabolic hazard. You can't choke a car and you can't choke a monster that's Immune to Metabolic Hazards.

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
but not "IMH makes you immune to Body Control spells because Undead are immune to Body Control spells and have IMH".
That's not my argument. You're welcome to disagree and provide arguments as to why I'm wrong, but not to put strawmen in my mouth and slay them.
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Old 07-15-2017, 04:18 PM   #12
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Default Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF

Yeah that is a pretty straightforward ruling, body control spells are metabolic hazards simply because they are defined as being such.
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Old 07-16-2017, 02:31 AM   #13
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Default Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
"Ogre" is one of those fantasy creature names that is used for a lot of disparate things...
The thread has "DF" in the title, how about you start there.

DF Ogres (as PCs) can buy IMH. Are they Immune to Body Control spells?


Quote:
Otherwise, yeah, I agree Doesn't Breathe grants immunity to choking, but otherwise choking isn't a Metabolic Hazard (in GURPS terms, obviously it is is in a literal sense).
But yet you're willing to class an entire category of spells as Metabolic Hazards when only a few actually affect a creatures metabolism?



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Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
Body control spells are threats that only affect the living (unless otherwise specified)...
Yes.
Quote:
...Immunity to Metabolic Hazards gives Immunity to threats that only affect living beings.
No. False.

It gives immunity only to Metabolic threats. It's right there in the name.

Fumble is a 'threat' that can only affect the living, however it is not a Metabolic threat.

Quote:
You're the one who is adding "mundane metabolic hazards" in there. There's no distinction in the rules.
Sure. I'll grant that.


Quote:
Resistant to Metabolic Hazards would of course give its bonus to the HT-based Resistance rolls for most Body Control spells. If you accept my argument that that Body Control spells are metabolic hazards, that's an obvious continuance of the argument.
I do not. I reject it as it has no basis in the RAW.

However there are 8-10 specific Body Control spells I'd be willing to consider as Metabolic affecting, and thus would fall under "Metabolic Hazards". But if I did so then the "good" versions of those spells would also be affected by IMH.


Quote:
Since the Choke spell is a Body Control spell (and not an Air spell), I would guess that it works by preventing a living subject's lungs from working, and should be treated as a metabolic hazard.
So... punching someone in the solar plexus is a Metabolic Hazard?

Is our hypothetical Ogre PC immune to stunning from hits to the vitals in the abdomen (a gut punch if you will)?




Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Yeah that is a pretty straightforward ruling, body control spells are metabolic hazards simply because they are defined as being such.
Where are they defined as Metabolic Hazards? I get defined as "only affects the living", but that is a horse of a different color...
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Old 07-16-2017, 02:38 AM   #14
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Default Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
The thread has "DF" in the title, how about you start there.

DF Ogres (as PCs) can buy IMH. Are they Immune to Body Control spells?
Is it a power-up? I've never seen an ogre PC, so I haven't really noticed.

Quote:
But yet you're willing to class an entire category of spells as Metabolic Hazards when only a few actually affect a creatures metabolism?
I'd be more willing to rework the entire spell system so that it makes sense. I am hoping the DFRPG addresses some of these issues.

Quote:
Where are they defined as Metabolic Hazards? I get defined as "only affects the living", but that is a horse of a different color...
"Metabolic hazards" as a category of Resistance are defined as those things that only affect the living, Body Control spells are defined as only affecting the living, therefore they are definitely part of the set of things that only affect the living, ergo they are part of the set of "metabolic hazards". It may not be the intent, but it is pretty straightforward.

Maybe it is asking Kromm time?
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Old 07-16-2017, 03:06 AM   #15
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Default Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Is it a power-up? I've never seen an ogre PC, so I haven't really noticed.
Yup, it's in Power-Ups.

Ogres are just brutal as PCs... but armor and weapons are expensive. Especially if they are Barbarians (SM +2? Yeesh). Which is why mine is a wrestler. And completely not Immune to Metabolic Hazards (it felt too much like cheating to me).


Quote:
I'd be more willing to rework the entire spell system so that it makes sense. I am hoping the DFRPG addresses some of these issues.
Amen.


Quote:
"Metabolic hazards" as a category of Resistance are defined as those things that only affect the living, Body Control spells are defined as only affecting the living, therefore they are definitely part of the set of things that only affect the living, ergo they are part of the set of "metabolic hazards". It may not be the intent, but it is pretty straightforward.
I had a long paragraph in here... but I'm coming around to this. Not that I agree with this interpretation, but that IMH is simply written poorly.

Being in a choke hold is a threat to living things... ergo, concordantly, vis-a-vis.

Quote:
Maybe it is asking Kromm time?
I'm enjoying the back and forth so far. But if someone wants The Final Answer, I'm not adverse to hearing it.
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Old 07-16-2017, 07:50 AM   #16
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Default Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Immunity to Metabolic Hazards gives immunity only to Metabolic threats. It's right there in the name.
Okay, so what are Metabolic Hazards? Well, the definition of Metabolic Hazards is "all threats that only affect the living."

You keep saying that I'm reaching outside the rules and my position isn't supported by the rules, but I'm reading the rules very literally here. A Metabolic Hazard is a threat that only affects the living (B81). A Body Control spell is a threat that only affects living beings (B35).

Orcs have Resistant to Metabolic Hazards +3. Should an orc get an bonus to resist a Nauseate or Retch spell? Yes, that would be consistent with the definitions of Body Control spells and Metabolic Hazards, and it would make sense to me that orcs, already resistant to most things that cause Nausea and Retching, are not going to succumb to magically induced Nausea as easily as a puny human.

Should an orc be resistant to Fumble? That's a harder question, but the prerequisite chain for Fumble includes Spasm, and Spasm is described as targeting the subject's voluntary muscles. That sounds like a Metabolic Hazard to me (induced acute hypocalcemia?) so I suspect Fumble is more of the same.

Or not. But if you're going to continue to argue against my position, a quote or two from the actual rules would be appreciated.
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Old 07-16-2017, 01:38 PM   #17
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Default Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF

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Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
Orcs have Resistant to Metabolic Hazards +3. Should an orc get an bonus to resist a Nauseate or Retch spell? Yes, that would be consistent with the definitions of Body Control spells and Metabolic Hazards, and it would make sense to me that orcs, already resistant to most things that cause Nausea and Retching, are not going to succumb to magically induced Nausea as easily as a puny human.
Granted and as I mentioned above I think several (somewhere around 8-10) actually do class as Metabolic Hazards, as in they affect the metabolism (Retch, Hunger, Thirst, Gauntness, Enlarge, Transform Other, etc).

But a good number do not.


(Note, i do not actually class Retch or Nauseate as Metabolic Hazards... but I'm willing to grant them under the umbrella.)

Quote:
Should an orc be resistant to Fumble? That's a harder question, but the prerequisite chain for Fumble includes Spasm, and Spasm is described as targeting the subject's voluntary muscles. That sounds like a Metabolic Hazard to me (induced acute hypocalcemia?) so I suspect Fumble is more of the same.
To me this feels like reaching to justify.

Quote:
Or not. But if you're going to continue to argue against my position, a quote or two from the actual rules would be appreciated.
Sure:

(emphasis mine)
Quote:
The bonus from Resistant applies to all rolls to resist noxious effects within a particular category – usually some combination of disease, poison, and environmental syndromes (altitude sickness, the bends, space sickness, etc.). It also applies to rolls to resist attacks that use these effects.
Going forward from this line I take it that Metabolic Hazards are meant to protect versus Environmentally caused problems.

This precludes say, a choke hold (which you have to admit is a threat to the living). Or should our hypothetical Ogre with ItMH be immune to that as well (DR doesn't protect so clears that hurdle)?




[EDIT]
I went and hunted down Conditions B428... which covers Afflictions. ItMH is specifically designed to resist Afflictions.

Now I'm wondering if the intent is to class spells as Afflictions and thus ... how many other spells does ItMH casually resist? Clearly the Mind Control spell Sickness* is covered (in your opinion) but what about Daze or Sleep? Both are HT resisted, both Afflictions...

* As it's both Body and Mind Control, it's covered under your philosophy.


The following line also occurs in Resistant:
Quote:
You are naturally resistant (or even immune) to noxious items or substances that are not direct, physical attacks. This gives you a bonus on all
HT rolls to resist incapacitation or injury from such things.
Is magic a "substance"? It's often an indirect, non-physical attack...

If so... I'm really way more inclined to buy ItMH for my Ogre...
[/EDIT]
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Old 07-16-2017, 02:30 PM   #18
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Default Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Going forward from this line I take it that Metabolic Hazards are meant to protect versus Environmentally caused problems.
And poisons and diseases and other hazards, including noxious substances. Magic is neither specifically included nor excluded.

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
This precludes say, a choke hold (which you have to admit is a threat to the living). Or should our hypothetical Ogre with ItMH be immune to that as well (DR doesn't protect so clears that hurdle)?
Choke Holds don't have Resistance rolls (see B404) and only Don't Breathe is going to save you from suffocation (B436). Chokes are a damage effect mediated by a Quick Contest (B370-371) for which DR does protect (B371) so ItMH does not protect. (If you use the MA version of Choke Hold, it refers to Choke for the crush or fatigue damage and DR still protects).

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Clearly the Mind Control spell Sickness (as it's both Body and Mind Control)
Actually, since it's a Mind Control spell, it could just a mental effect that makes you think you're sick and isn't necessarily a Metabolic Hazard. Just like Hinder might not qualify as a Metabolic Hazard because it's also a movement spell and might be a spatial effect that slows your movement.
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Old 07-16-2017, 03:34 PM   #19
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Default Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF

The funny thing about this is in that in my head canon it's Mind Control and Body Control that are most compatible with "elder things". Lovecraft's elder things were mostly living entities...albeit at least part alien or from the Earth's remote past. And the things that Mind Control and Body Control do are the things that happen in Lovecraftian fiction. If you want to mess with someones sanity, alleviate their insanity, render them incapable of leaving a particular area, terrify them, or interact with dreams, then Mind Control seems like the way to go. Or if you were to twist and warp their physical form (including taking something utterly bizarre and hideous to humans and make it physically humanlike), interbreed them with different species, turn them to stone or just impose witch-like curses, then that's Body Control.

Mind and Body Control have the spells with the most potential for horror, as much or more more than Necromancy. And I kind of hate that they'd be excluded from being very useful in the games that are most oriented toward horror elements.
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Old 07-17-2017, 12:41 AM   #20
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Default Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF

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Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
And poisons and diseases and other hazards, including noxious substances. Magic is neither specifically included nor excluded.
Doesn't change the way i take/took ItMH to operate.


Quote:
Actually, since it's a Mind Control spell, it could just a mental effect that makes you think you're sick and isn't necessarily a Metabolic Hazard. Just like Hinder might not qualify as a Metabolic Hazard because it's also a movement spell and might be a spatial effect that slows your movement.
Actually they never stop being Body Control spells, regardless of what other colleges they are a part of.


And you didn't answer about Sleep or Daze. HT resisted Mind Control, probably Afflictions, does ItMH stop them cold? Or are they somehow not "metabolic hazards"?
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