Advantages that can be replicated with gear, possible limitation / cost reduction?

[vicky_molokh]

IMO the best build for a trait that is genuinely replicable by technology is some variation of:

Extra Arm (Weapon Mount -80%) + Signature Gear (same cost as gear would cost) + Payload (same mass as gear would mass). Done.

(Read the OP below.)

[Yako]

I recently tried to make a thread about advantages that can be replicated with gear, like Vision advantages that are duplicated with high tech easy to wear goggles, protection from various environmental hazards that are easily available through suits, fireballs vs Blaster rifles or, Dame Resistance VS Battle Armor.

I want to make clear here that I don't want another discussion about the "can't wear armor" limitation as it stands, what I do want is to discuss either a similar limitation for advantages which are either binary and available with gear or such ones that cannot stack with it.
Thus, something like "doesn't benefit from nightvision goggles, -20%" or "effectively always has the advantages of a space suits, so, there, why charge full points for it when there is a space suit, 60% off sale; divide point cost by five".

There is of course an advantage to having the ability to shoot fireballs at all times, even when yoyu are searched for weapons and all, but since this means that, unless you keep that ability a secret, you will only get extra security applied to you and the fact that from hiding it in body cavities to paying some points for a cosmic payload smuggling weapons into secured places is not impossible, it seems a bit unfair to price it just the same as you do when no one can get the same with money.
After all, gadget limitations come with the word of advice that ONLY should a gadget be built on points when nothing of the sort exists in the game, anywhere, in a way that it could be acquired simply with money.

There are many cases where the lines between gear and advantage can be a bit blurry and making the gap between the costs a bit less steep sure could help out in this regard.

So, does anyone have good concrete ideas about this, or is at least willing to discuss it?
...like instead of talking whether "can't wear armour" is broken or not?

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

My preference is to treat as much as possible as equipment. Rather than have those robots in Ultra-Tech purchase their bodies as points, I prefer for them to purchase only the stuff in their brains with points, with everything else purchased with money. I would then do the same with humans' cybernetics.

If for some reason I want to build the readily-purchased item with points, I like to give it at least a 1/5 discount, similar to an alternative ability.

There are some things that I don't know how to handle. If I want to play a character that's a magic flying sword, and I want him to be Very Fine, Balanced, and the highest level of Ornate, I'm not sure exactly how to handle that with powers, even though that stuff is not equipment and clearly inseparable from the character's body. So I wouldn't be inclined to handle that with money. And I don't think Accessory handles it satisfactorily either.

As I quit like this idea and toyed with it myself I want to quote this from the other topic.

Could one perhaps do this as a general rule with different levels?

/5 for something that is identical in utility, thus veing essential a more stealthy non electrical / otherwise susceptible to technological counter measures version?
An less of a reduction when the gear that replaces it is cumbersome enough to reduce utility?
Like nightvision and such which you'd have to employ a bulky device for instead of a slim goggle that doesn't impedement you?

I am thinking of devising a cost scheme but I am not sure what to set as reduction values so far...

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

IMO the best build for a trait that is genuinely replicable by technology is some variation of:

Extra Arm (Weapon Mount -80%) + Signature Gear (same cost as gear would cost) + Payload (same mass as gear would mass). Done.

(Read the OP below.)

But do you actually gain the weight? suppose I'm an ultra tech magic as powers wizards who shoots energy beams that do as much as 30 lb laser cannon?

For a lot of things the above does make sense. For weapons and armor though, I'd prefer some "naturalization method" pricing things relative to "expected damage and weapons"

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by ericthered

But do you actually gain the weight? suppose I'm an ultra tech magic as powers wizards who shoots energy beams that do as much as 30 lb laser cannon?

For a lot of things the above does make sense. For weapons and armor though, I'd prefer some "naturalization method" pricing things relative to "expected damage and weapons"

Since Mass is a Feature, I'm totally okay with a single-purpose Payload that negates mass increase for it, but can't accept anything else.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by ericthered

But do you actually gain the weight?

Yes, but I believe there's a payload advantage for that. The other problem is that internal payload is kind of like a belt pouch (external payload is like mounting racks on your surface), so unless you could use the item while it was in a belt pouch, you can't use it while it's in your payload (though you can pull it out just fine). I'd probably call it a 50% enhancement to be able to have stuff in internal payload while also being usable (this is more of a factor for armor than for weapons, since weapons require a hand anyway). For external payload it doesn't matter.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Yes, but I believe there's a payload advantage for that. The other problem is that internal payload is kind of like a belt pouch (external payload is like mounting racks on your surface), so unless you could use the item while it was in a belt pouch, you can't use it while it's in your payload (though you can pull it out just fine). I'd probably call it a 50% enhancement to be able to have stuff in internal payload while also being usable (this is more of a factor for armor than for weapons, since weapons require a hand anyway). For external payload it doesn't matter.

OTOH, this is Payload you can never use for anything else. Can't say I'm all that concerned.

[ErhnamDJ]

Originally Posted by Yako

Could one perhaps do this as a general rule with different levels?

/5 for something that is identical in utility, thus veing essential a more stealthy non electrical / otherwise susceptible to technological counter measures version?
An less of a reduction when the gear that replaces it is cumbersome enough to reduce utility?
Like nightvision and such which you'd have to employ a bulky device for instead of a slim goggle that doesn't impedement you?

I would do that with new Gadget limitations. GURPS often ignores the inconvenience of weight and bulk.

If it's a steampunk game and you're trying to move around a heavy computer that allows you to use, say, Intuitive Mathematician, then it might make sense for it to be more limiting than purely by size modifier. If it's made out of solid steel, then it's more trouble than a gadget made out of balsa wood.

Or it could be anything. It might be an incredibly heavy lightning-firing machine you can wear on your back.

So, yeah, we need a Gadget limitation for encumbrance.


Along those same lines, I think character weight could be handled better. The six hundred pound barbarian can hardly ride a horse, but players still write that number down since it's handled like it's a meaningless free statistic similar in kind to eye color, even though it has a big effect in-game. They end up falling through floors, smashing chairs, and destroying beds an awful lot too. It's a big inconvenience with not much of a benefit to even it out.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

OTOH, this is Payload you can never use for anything else.

That's a separate limitation. I was actually thinking about writing an article on Powers as Equipment.

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Yes, but I believe there's a payload advantage for that. The other problem is that internal payload is kind of like a belt pouch (external payload is like mounting racks on your surface), so unless you could use the item while it was in a belt pouch, you can't use it while it's in your payload (though you can pull it out just fine). I'd probably call it a 50% enhancement to be able to have stuff in internal payload while also being usable (this is more of a factor for armor than for weapons, since weapons require a hand anyway). For external payload it doesn't matter.

That's not, necessarily, true. And, there's nothing in the description of Payload that says anything about that, directly. The closest is the comment:

Originally Posted by Campaigns, pg 74

You must allocate your Payload between cargo and occupants when you buy the advantage:

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with Vicky's build for an "appendage" that allows you to replicate a technological ability.

It's a good starting point for an idea. However, as he points out, Mass is a feature. If you were going to have an ability that replicated a piece of technology, I would proably do it with:

Extra Arm (Gear Mount) + Signature Gear (Value of gear) + Signature Gear (Value of 5x power cell cost*) + Signature (either no limitation, low signature or no signature).

I don't see the Payload as necessary, but, I wouldn't complain if it were mandatory.

*- Based off the Consumable Signature Gear pricing in GURPS Supers.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

That's not, necessarily, true.

And, there's nothing in the description of Payload that says anything about that, directly.

Payload offers Cargo and Occupants. Equipment in use is neither one. Also, all the examples given are clearly pockets.

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

Extra Arm (Gear Mount) + Signature Gear (Value of gear) + Signature Gear (Value of 5x power cell cost*) + Signature (either no limitation, low signature or no signature).

Advantages on signature gear do not affect the gear -- you can't buy signature gear (sword; cosmic(ignores DR))[4].