After the End, except it never stopped ending...

[Boomerang]

@ Anthony,

Now that's a cool idea!

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Boomerang

Your Vietnam example refutes your point. The US army kept pushing for a swift decisive victory and were stymied by the slow, patient tactics of the North Vietnamese. The Vietnamese won against the world's strongest military when really they should have been soundly beaten.

You are misinformed. The first US military advisers went in in 1955. The ramp up in terms of troops didn't happen until the early 1960s under Kennedy and it was until the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident that the ramp up in troop numbers really took off.

So the US had effectively been puttering around for 9 years before they got serious. And then it fell into the trap of its generals fighting the previous war. Tactics and strategy not overwhelming firepower was what was needed and the US simply didn't see that. They came in with Chess pieces to a game of Go.

As I said before a long continuous war is effectively impossible in terms of social, political, and economical factors.

[Boomerang]

I don't want to derail this thread, if you would like to open a thread talking about the merits of Sun Tzu's teaching in the context of the American-Vietnam war I would be happy to participate. I am not sure which forum it belongs in though.

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by Boomerang

Your Vietnam example refutes your point. The US army kept pushing for a swift decisive victory and were stymied by the slow, patient tactics of the North Vietnamese. The Vietnamese won against the world's strongest military when really they should have been soundly beaten.

The Americans could have won the war in three months had they been allowed to deploy ground troops in North Vietnam. However, they were not allowed to because of external political factors (namely because it would likely start a broader war with the Communist bloc and because it would have been too bloody).

[tanksoldier]

Originally Posted by TGLS

The Americans could have won the war in three months had they been allowed to deploy ground troops in North Vietnam. However, they were not allowed to because of external political factors (namely because it would likely start a broader war with the Communist bloc and because it would have been too bloody).

This. There was a lot going on. Not sure where the appropriate location for the discussion is however.

[Boomerang]

I've started a new topic in the Geek Culture forum.

[AlexanderHowl]

One of the problems with any protracted war between great powers or super powers at TL7+ is that it ends in nuclear warfare. When both sides have nuclear weapons, they end up using proxies or having their forces as 'advisors', 'meecenaries', or 'volunteers' and are careful not to end fighting directly. If they do end up fighting directly, it will probably escalate to the release in nuclear weapons within a few days unless a more powerful nation interferes (such as the USA and/or Russia/USSR in the case of India and Pakistan).

After the nuclear weapons are used, the industrial capacity of the combatents is probably knocked back to TL6 (they will have stores of higher TL equipment, but they will not be able to replace them). Hundreds of millions of civilians are dead and, since most of the casualties are in urban areas, the scientific and technical expertise has mostly died with them. The rural populations may be capable of providing enough food for the survivors but, as they are unable to replace mechanized farm equipment, even that capacity dwindles over time. Eventually, the population decline continues until it reaches that maximum that can be supported by a TL4 civilization.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

One of the problems with any protracted war between great powers or super powers at TL7+ is that it ends in nuclear warfare. When both sides have nuclear weapons, they end up using proxies or having their forces as 'advisors', 'meecenaries', or 'volunteers' and are careful not to end fighting directly. If they do end up fighting directly, it will probably escalate to the release in nuclear weapons within a few days unless a more powerful nation interferes (such as the USA and/or Russia/USSR in the case of India and Pakistan).

After the nuclear weapons are used, the industrial capacity of the combatents is probably knocked back to TL6 (they will have stores of higher TL equipment, but they will not be able to replace them). Hundreds of millions of civilians are dead and, since most of the casualties are in urban areas, the scientific and technical expertise has mostly died with them. The rural populations may be capable of providing enough food for the survivors but, as they are unable to replace mechanized farm equipment, even that capacity dwindles over time. Eventually, the population decline continues until it reaches that maximum that can be supported by a TL4 civilization.

HG wells' "Shape of Things to Come" postulated much the same thing at TL6 though he had "The Dictatorship of the Air" (renamed "Wings over the World" in the 1940 movie) come in and pick up the pieces as things quickly go down to TL4 as all remaining TL6 materials go into the war effort and there are epidemics as the infrastructure for TL6 medicine is effectively gone.