GURPS 3E at Warehouse 23

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by copeab

Since I don't run supers, the 3e version works fine for me. If you run supers, the 4e version may fit your needs better.

I think you're mischaracterizing the 4e Psionic Powers system. It is no more "supers" than the 3e Psionics is. It uses a system similar to the "supers" system outlined in GURPS Powers to build the Psionic abilities, but that is just using the 4e Advantage system to build Powers of any kind (be they magic, psionic, "super," cybernetic, or other). GURPS Psionic Powers for 4e is as self-contained as the GURPS Psionics for 3e is, and is heavily skill based much like the 3e Psionics is as well. It just ditches the abstracted level based powers from 3e in favor of advantage based powers.

[Daigoro]

copeab might be referring to the infamous power imbalance in 3e between Supers and Psionics, as they were essentially built independently from scratch. 4e Psionics and Supers are both based on the same core rules, so are implicitly more balanced against each other.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

3e psionics sounds like a variation of the standard magic system.

[hal]

Originally Posted by Blue Ghost

Oh wow, hey, lots of useful stuff. In all honesty I just have the old 3E hardback rulebook which I've read a couple of times, but never found a close by gaming group to partake in.

I was just wondering how much updating I would need if I went about searching for an older gaming group that used GURPS >:)

Well, the best advice I can give you on that, is to watch Ebay for the core books for 4e (in case the group you want to join uses just 4e). If price is no object, then - by all means, buy NEW books. ;)

That having been said, you probably need to work with the group itself to determine what would be good for you to get your hands on in preparation for the group itself.

If on the other hand, you want to START your own group - just remember, every existing group today, came into being, because SOMEONE made the effort to start it up.

In my gaming crew, which has been together for a LONG long time now, we started gaming together before there even was a GURPS. We used TFT, RUNEQUEST, DRAGONQUEST, D&D 2nd edition on up to 3.5, TRAVELLER, CHIVALRY & SORCERY. We settled down with GURPS largely because it fit our needs.

Then came the day when my wife, introduced to gaming on GURPS, was persuaded to try D&D. The campaign was based on the Celtic sourcebook and the Rome sourcebook. Once she hit third level as a fighter, she asked at the table "why is it that when I go up against a zero level or first level fighter, I can't be beat, and against a second level, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot that the other can do to win?" It bothered her a lot.

Mind you, of those of us remaining in our gaming crew, we all have fencing backgrounds. Two of the three of us have ridden horses (The stories I could tell about that alone!!!), two of the three of us camped a lot and have experience with issues dealing with critters invading the camp site (ever sit absolutely still as a skunk sits beneath your chair investing on the hope of finding some food?) I don't think I prayed as much that our dogs would remain asleep as I did that moment!

In any event, I digress. My wife started with GURPS, and after trying two other game systems (C&S and D&D) wanted to go back to GURPS. She's been gaming since 1986 - which should tell you something. ;)

So, don't be shy about becoming a GM and showing off what GURPS can achieve. Even if you don't want to be a permanent GM, get someone who might enjoy the GM's duties, interested enough in GURPS that you can tap his shoulder saying "Tagged, you're it" and then run laughing out of the room. (hmmm, maybe not quite like that, but you get the gist of what I'm suggesting I'm sure!)

I see you list your address as the Spinward Marches. You can always pick up a copy of GURPS TRAVELLER from somewhere, as GURPS 3e is the original vehicle upon which GURPS TRAVELLER was built. For that kind of campaign, you'd want GURPS 3e, GURPS VEHICLES 2nd edition, GURPS PSIONICS, GURPS TRAVELLER, and any other support material you might want for the Third Imperium.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

GURPS Psionic Powers for 4e is as self-contained as the GURPS Psionics for 3e is, and is heavily skill based much like the 3e Psionics is as well. It just ditches the abstracted level based powers from 3e in favor of advantage based powers.

(For those unawre, 3e psionics had two slides -- power level and skill level. Skill in a power was handled the same as any other mental skill)

It was my understanding that 4e psionics had a rather fixed skill level, compared to 3e, and a 3e like skill progression didn't appear until a later supplement.

Also, I am not clear on what part of 3e psionics was "abstract".

[hal]

Originally Posted by copeab

(For those unawre, 3e psionics had two slides -- power level and skill level. Skill in a power was handled the same as any other mental skill)

It was my understanding that 4e psionics had a rather fixed skill level, compared to 3e, and a 3e like skill progression didn't appear until a later supplement.

Also, I am not clear on what part of 3e psionics was "abstract".

For what it is worth, the hue and cry about CLASSIC PSIONICS being broken came into being, in a large part, because players were being given a larger point budget to buy their initial character capabilities. As with much of anything involving GURPS, high point budget totals can break ANYTHING in GURPS, including melee combat or ranged combat. It took people running SUPERS campaigns in GURPS 3e to run head on into the flaws of the design system and cry bloody murder to the powers that be.

I suspect that the term "abstractions" may have been better served with "Arbitrary" rather than abstract. What GURPS 4e did (in my opinion) was change the pricing of various "things" to make them more expensive on the grounds that these "things" were more useful etc.

All prices for (dis)Advantages in GURPS are arbitrary. Seeing market forces at work with these is kind of ironic when you get down to it. If a "thing" is so badly priced that no one buys it for their characters, then - that "thing" is never purchased. If the price is really worth the while, players buy it often.

Me? I prefer the structure from GURPS CLASSIC PSIONICS. The prices involved for the newer version of PSIONICS is too expensive and because I generally won't permit point budgets in excess of 150 (rarely 250!), many of these things never get used, and never will in my games. It isn't that I said "no, you can't have these" it is my players saying "No, that's too many points - I've got to buy other things." Having a one trick pony for 50 character points is a bad idea...

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by copeab

(For those unawre, 3e psionics had two slides -- power level and skill level. Skill in a power was handled the same as any other mental skill)

GURPS 4e has a vaguely similar setup, it just doesn't have power level as rigidly defined for most abilities.

Originally Posted by copeab

It was my understanding that 4e psionics had a rather fixed skill level, compared to 3e, and a 3e like skill progression didn't appear until a later supplement.

The 4e Psionics, as introduced in the Basic Set 4th Edition, featured rolling against Attributes for most powers. GURPS Psionic Powers changes that to giving each power it's own skill to learn and roll against, very similar to the 3e Psionic system. It also built power levels for psionic abilities in a more structured way, with many of them featuring actual "levels" of power.

I was specifically comparing GURPS Psionics for 3e to GURPS Psionic Powers for 4e.

Originally Posted by copeab

Also, I am not clear on what part of 3e psionics was "abstract".

As Hal said, perhaps "arbitrary" would have been a better descriptive word. As in "the cost for psionic abilities is completely unlinked with any other abilities in the game." That, alone, is not necessarily a bad thing, but the cost for Psionic abilities in 3e was significantly less than the cost for other abilities while suffering fewer limitations than the similarly problematic Magic as skills system.

[scc]

Personally I'd prefer it if Psionic Powers had used a structure like that developed for Imbuments, with several related skills keying off a single central ability. So empathic and telepathic skills key off a central Imbument, while abilities related to the Astral Plane key off another and so on.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by scc

Personally I'd prefer it if Psionic Powers had used a structure like that developed for Imbuments, with several related skills keying off a single central ability. So empathic and telepathic skills key off a central Imbument, while abilities related to the Astral Plane key off another and so on.

That's basically how GURPS Psionics for 3e worked, with the central ability being a leveled advantage which sets your "power" with that ability and several skills under that ability which affects your breadth as well as depth of knowledge within that ability. It's a system that's basically compatible with 4e (in that it is it's own contained system), and if you want that kind of power structure for Psionics I do recommend picking up GURPS Psionics for 3e.

[smurf]

In hindsight 3e Psi wasn't just broken it just exploded. Given that there were half a dozen powers with their levels it was quite easy to do the Comic book psis with skills in all sorts.

What I likes about the 4e version was a much more stream lined and costly approach to abilities. Talents were good too, so Psis did not automatically end up super geniuses all the time (mainly in 3e) and the Psis are now at lot more base line IQ levels.

The only real mechanical difference is TK ST in 3e is not as good as 4e due different ST calculations.