Detect - why does it cost more to detect the common?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by tantric

Ah, I see the problem. Dude, the universe is not arranged in exclusive concentric sets. Books written in kiSwahili are a tiny fraction of the books that exist, but are butt common in Tanzania.

But not as common as all books, so it must be at least one step down from that category.

Thus the rarity of kitabu cha kiSwahili depends on what your superset is - books in general, or books in Tanzania. You don't pay 30 points for Detect (He) because it is Very Common in the universe.

Of course I don't. 30 points would be "All Gases" Helium as a specific element would probably be 10 points.

For your character, unless he is a Jovian Overlord, Helium is Rare. You are taking the example in B48 too literally. Does a person who lives in the Empty Quarter pay the same price for Detect (Water) as does a person in the Amazon?

Definitely if they are in the same campaign.

And, FURTHERMORE, you are ignoring the point. If I want to Detect (sportsfans), why does that cost 20pts?

It doesn't. Detect all Humans costs 20 points, so detecting sports fans would cost 10 points unless it's an interstellar campaign with loads of alien sports fans.

Even if I can figure out their teams, what good is it?

Lets you start friendly conversations with them. You'll always be able to say "So how about them <favourite team>" It's the equivalent of having a positive reaction modifier with sports fans provided that that you have time to converse with them.

There I'm using it as a convenience to see something not obvious. Then compare it to Detect (Pedophiles), which are not as rare as you think (I played DnD with the CreepCleric), but still Rare? Then my analysis might be good for something, but that only costs 5pts *and* I'm bypassing Secret, Imprisonment or Exile.

No you aren't. Detecting a pedophile isn't the same thing as proving someone's a pedophile and it certainly isn't the same thing as establishing that a pedophile has actually done something beyond thinking bad thoughts.

Actually, I want my Spiritualists to be able to Detect (Spirits), but you can't swing a mongoose without hitting an ancestor in Ubantu, so it costs 20pts. Even if I cut this to half with Vague, it still costs the same as Medium, and Medium lets you talk with the spirits.

"Doctor, it hurts when I do that."
"So don't do that."

If there's a cheaper way to do something, nothing obligates you to use a more expensive approach. Mechanics already exist for detecting spirits. There's no need to use Detect for that, unless you want the analysis capability. And with a sufficiently trivial ability like "can tell when someone's a sports fan" it's an appropriate candidate for perkdom. (Note that if you DID get Detect Sports Fan, it would be able able to do things like detecting invisible sports fans or stadiums full of sports fans from miles away.

In this setting, having Detect (Witches) is like being able to mint money.

Wealth is of course its own advantage.

[Refplace]

One thing that may have been overlooked here.
Medium does not let youfindspirits only talk to or call them.

[tantric]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Yep. In GURPS First Edition, Absolute Direction cost 5 points whether you were a desk jockey in the modern world of GPS or a low-tech explorer on the oceans and deserts of 500 B.C. Ditto in GURPS Second Edition, GURPS Third Edition, and GURPS Third Edition Revised. In GURPS First Edition, Intuition cost 15 points whether you played an IQ 7 thug with -40 points in disadvantages that kept you from caring about decisions or deductions, or an IQ 20 detective. Ditto in GURPS Second Edition, GURPS Third Edition, and GURPS Third Edition Revised. "A given trait costs what it costs" has always been a basic design premise of the game. Only social traits were ever really setting-, society-, and/or individual-dependent; in fact, that's essentially the definition of "social trait."

And FWIW, I cannot imagine why anyone would represent "gaydar" with Detect, a supernatural ability. It's quite clearly a trivial social perk, worth about 1 point in any setting.

Hmmm - in Saudia Arabia, if I make a pass at the wrong guy, they kill me. In that setting, being gay is Secret, Possible Death and having gaydar is the only hope you have of having love and happiness in your life. You don't have to imagine it - it's real.

If you really want to know, I'm having this discussion because I had a tooth cut out yesterday and I'm swimming in milk of the poppy. The medical clinic I go to never prescribes narcotics, even for kidney stones, but my dentist hands them out like candy. Go figure.

I was referring to Unusual Background. In 3e, if you wanted to play someone with blue skin on modern day Earth, it would cost you 15pts Unusual Background, because it was *rare*. It was my understanding that in 4e, traits are valued solely on how much they benefit/inhibit the character and that UB is dead and gone. Thus I can't understand why Detect (Mold) would cost 20pts. It's everywhere, but we never see it. But Detecting it is useless. I would base the price range on the utility, value or danger of the thing being detected. Detect (Mold), Useless [5] and Detect (Gunpowder), Lifesaving [30]. Detect (Gold) Very Valuable, [30], Detect (Noble Gas), Harmless [5]. Does that make sense? I'm not expecting for every trait to have a relative utility based price, but I can expect a practical basis for the levels of the same trait.

The alternative is something like this: of the 5 species of incorporeal intelligences living on Earth, the Abyssans outnumber the others 9999 to 1. The Abyssans live in the Marianas Trench and never leave. The Ghosts of Yis are the rarest, but they all live in New York City. Bobby lives in NYC and pays 30pts for Detect (Abyssan), because they are Common, despite the fact that he will never see one, while his buddy Mike pays 5pts for Detect (Ghosts of Yis), because they are Rare, even though he is actually quite likely to see one. Or did I misclassify? Are the Ghosts of Yis the most common kind of Reptilian Intelligence? Or would that only be an issue if Betty Sue took Detect (Reptoid)? You see, how common a given thing is isn't based on how much of your personal conceptual universe it occupies, except to *you*. I don't have a map of that universe (or was it in the Errata?) so I can only go with the obvious.

In essence, this is already how Weakness works - Common=Dangerous. No sensible GM would allow a PC to have Weakness, Very Common to something he would never encounter, no matter what percentage of the Natural Category it represented. Beetles are by far the most common insects, but I would never allow a Very Common Weakness to beetles on Luna or Atlantis.

Yes, I tend to dig into to thing and not know when to let go. It's a problem, and it cost me grad school. But it's the internets, and the godz of the interwebs like bulldog minded snark beasts more than the God of Earth likes beetles. Peace.

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by tantric

I was referring to Unusual Background. In 3e, if you wanted to play someone with blue skin on modern day Earth, it would cost you 15pts Unusual Background. It was my understanding that in 4e, traits are valued solely on how much the benefit/inhibit the character.

UB still exists.

Originally Posted by tantric

Thus I can't understand why Detect (Mold) would cost 20pts. It's everywhere, but we never see it. But Detecting it is useless.

Detect (Mold) is allows you to determine how much and what kind of mold is around you. It'll also let you detect alien molds as being distinct from normal molds if such things exist in the campaign.

That the information it provides is mostly useless in action-adventure contexts, I agree. Which is why the GM should tell the player asking to have the supernatural ability to detect and differentiate mold that it won't ever come up in-game and that they either aren't permitted to take it or that they are permitted to take it but its' wasted points. (Or the GM can house-rule the cost of Detect (Mold) to whatever the GM feels its' actually worth.)

Originally Posted by tantric

I would base the price range on the utility, value or danger of the thing being detected. Detect (Mold), Useless [5] and Detect (Gunpowder), Lifesaving [30]. Detect (Gold) Very Valuable, [30], Detect (Noble Gas), Harmless [5]. Does that make sense?

It does. It also isn't how GURPS does advantages. Advantages aren't necessarily priced according to their utility. (Combat Reflexes, for example, is worth a hell of a lot more than [15].)

Sounds like a nice house-rule.

Originally Posted by tantric

In essence, this is already how Weakness works - Common=Dangerous. No sensible GM would allow a PC to have Weakness, Very Common to something he would never encounter, no matter what percentage of the Natural Category it represented. Beetles are by far the most common insects, but I would never allow a Very Common Weakness to beetles on Luna or Atlantis.

Disadvantages aren't priced the same way advantages are. A situational +1 to a given skill is worth [2] as an advantage, while a -4 to a specific skill is worth [-1]. Disadvantages don't give fair value for their effects because it is assumed that a player will try to avoid situations where it applies and because it is assumed that the GM either can't or won't harshly enforce them at every opportunity.

[scc]

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

Detect (Mold) is allows you to determine how much and what kind of mold is around you. It'll also let you detect alien molds as being distinct from normal molds if such things exist in the campaign.

That the information it provides is mostly useless in action-adventure contexts, I agree. Which is why the GM should tell the player asking to have the supernatural ability to detect and differentiate mold that it won't ever come up in-game and that they either aren't permitted to take it or that they are permitted to take it but its' wasted points. (Or the GM can house-rule the cost of Detect (Mold) to whatever the GM feels its' actually worth.)

Detect (Mold) would be a subset of something like Detect (Plants) or Detect (Bacteria), so it's likely not a 20 pointer. Note also that penicillin is made from mold

[tantric]

That's my point: is Mold the most common fungus, or a Rare non-animal? There's no way to judge that fairly. On the other hand, I can very quantitatively measure how commonly I encounter mold. In the RAW, if Detect(Insects) is Very Common, Detect(Mosquitoes) is Rare, while if Detect(Possible Parasite Vectors) is Very Common (including zoonotics), then Detect(Mosquitoes) is only Common. Which is it? I propose that a)Detect(Mosquitoes) is Common because I see them everyday or Detect(Mosquitoes) is Basically Useless, because there are very few mosquito born illnesses in NA. Both would cost 5pts. Detect(Deadly Pathogens) would be Lifesaving and cost 30pts, as would Detect(U-235), Very Rare.

This started because I wanted Detect(Spirits) that works on incorporeal and embodied spirits, which I assumed to be Common. Now I have no idea - to what set do souls belong? I needed to have Detect(Souls), Detect(Alien Spirits), Detect(Nature Spirits), Detect(Incorporeal Beings), Detect(Witches) and Detect(Ancestral Spirits). How do I decide that? What are the categories?

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by tantric

That's my point: is Mold the most common fungus, or a Rare non-animal? There's no way to judge that fairly. On the other hand, I can very quantitatively measure how commonly I encounter mold. In the RAW, if Detect(Insects) is Very Common, Detect(Mosquitoes) is Rare, while if Detect(Possible Parasite Vectors) is Very Common (including zoonotics), then Detect(Mosquitoes) is only Common. Which is it?

Detect (All Life; Very Common) > Detect (Insects; Common) > Detect (Mosquitoes; Occasional) > Detect (Single Mosquito Species; Rare).

Detect (All Life or All Minerals; Very Common) > Detect (Parasite Vectors; Common) > Detect (Mosquitoes; Occasional) > Detect (Single Mosquito Species; Rare).

Detect (Mosquitoes) is Occasional.

Originally Posted by tantric

I propose that a)Detect(Mosquitoes) is Common because I see them everyday or Detect(Mosquitoes) is Basically Useless, because there are very few mosquito born illnesses in NA. Both would cost 5pts.

Sounds like an interesting house-rule. Are you going to be writing it up in detail for us to look at once the idea solidifies and you've playtested it some?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by tantric

Hmmm - in Saudia Arabia, if I make a pass at the wrong guy, they kill me. In that setting, being gay is Secret, Possible Death and having gaydar is the only hope you have of having love and happiness in your life. You don't have to imagine it - it's real.

Doesn't mean you need a super power for it.

It was my understanding that in 4e, traits are valued solely on how much they benefit/inhibit the character and that UB is dead and gone.

Your understanding was wrong. Unusual Background is still very much a thing, and as I commented before, Advantages Are Not Utility Priced.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=108571

Thus I can't understand why Detect (Mold) would cost 20pts. It's everywhere, but we never see it. But Detecting it is useless.

Once again...Detect Mold would not cost 20 points. Detect fungus would be 20 points. Mold as a subcategory of fungus would be 10 points. Note that Detects find significant accumulations of the substance, not stray spores. And actually if we are getting into utility pricing, mold is the source of both valuable antibiotics and deadly poisons.

The alternative is something like this: of the 5 species of incorporeal intelligences living on Earth, the Abyssans outnumber the others 9999 to 1. The Abyssans live in the Marianas Trench and never leave. The Ghosts of Yis are the rarest, but they all live in New York City. Bobby lives in NYC and pays 30pts for Detect (Abyssan), because they are Common, despite the fact that he will never see one,

Obviously if he will never see one, if they do not exist within the real boundaries of the campaign setting, then they are not all that Common. But a subcategory should not be ranged at the same level as the general category. So since incorporeal intelligences in general are the kind of thing that costs 30 points, any specific kind of incorporeal intelligence should be no higher than 20, and maybe lower.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by tantric

It was my understanding that in 4e, traits are valued solely on how much they benefit/inhibit the character and that UB is dead and gone.

Unusual Background is right there in Characters.

[tantric]

Okay, I'm going to take a deep breath (and another pill) and start over.


Why does Detect (Gold), Vague -50% cost 3pts while Detect (Rocks), Vague -50% costs 15pts? Note that according to Kromm, Vague turns off the analysis. As he explained, with the analysis, you could detect gold or silver or iron or granite all with one detect, which would obviously be more costly than the ability to detect each type of rock individually. That makes sense. It's not the ability that doesn't make sense, it's the Vague limitation.

Hint: the answer is not 1)because that is what the book says or 2)gold is rarer than rocks. I've read the book, and I know about precious metals. I'm trying to understand why this advantage is structured the way it is, rather than some other way. It clearly could be structured so that the rarity is relative, or some other metric could be used (GURPS uses some highly subjective metrcis). The correct answer should resemble "becauseit improves game play in such a manner" or "because this way is better than these other ways because of so and so"