Detect - why does it cost more to detect the common?

[Michael Thayne]

Even with the limitation that stops you from analyzing what you detect, more general categories of Detect will usually be more valuable. For example, Detect (Orcs) vs. Detect (Living Beings) in a Dungeon Fantasy campaign. If you're on the human side in an orc vs. human war zone, you might prefer Detect Orcs, but in a more typical Dungeon Fantasy campaign where you could be attacked by orcs, giant spiders, dragons, human bandits, dark elves, etc. you'll want Detect Living Beings.

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by tantric

Have you read Detect? Common costs more, and the commonness is absolute, not relative to a category. Gold is rare because there's not a lot of it around. Helium is also rare, despite large amount of the universe being made of it. Detect (He) and Detect (Au) are 5pts. In the Castro, where gay people are common (we're here, we're queer, we're everywhere), Detect (gay) is a 20 pt ability, the same as Detect (female) or Detect (halfwit), but having gaydar is actually rather useful, just not 20pts useful. It is set up this way because you get more data from the analysis bit on the secondary roll if what you are detecting is common, but my point is that that may be useless. Yes, Detect (Pathogens) is worth 20pts, despite them being ubiquitous to the point that the detect is useless, because the analysis roll will tell you how dangerous they are. Detect (Mormon), assuming they are occasional, is not worth 10pts, even if you really dislike then, because the analysis part is useless. They should be separated (detection from analysis, I personally think that Mormons need more gayness in their lives).

Detect (Human) is Common per GURPS Basic, pg 48. Detect (Homosexual Humans) is a subset of Detect (Human) and thereby would be Occasional. Detect (Gay Men) is a subset of Detect (Homosexual Humans) and thereby would be Rare. So Detect (Gay Men) [5] would let you detect the closest gay man, tell how gay he is and then roll IQ in order to determine what kind of gay man he is.

Detect (Female Human) is a subset of Detect (Human) and thereby is Occasional. Detect (Mormon) would be Rare.

[tantric]

Ah, I see the problem. Dude, the universe is not arranged in exclusive concentric sets. Books written in kiSwahili are a tiny fraction of the books that exist, but are butt common in Tanzania. Thus the rarity of kitabu cha kiSwahili depends on what your superset is - books in general, or books in Tanzania. You don't pay 30 points for Detect (He) because it is Very Common in the universe. For your character, unless he is a Jovian Overlord, Helium is Rare. You are taking the example in B48 too literally. Does a person who lives in the Empty Quarter pay the same price for Detect (Water) as does a person in the Amazon?

And, FURTHERMORE, you are ignoring the point. If I want to Detect (sportsfans), why does that cost 20pts? Even if I can figure out their teams, what good is it? There I'm using it as a convenience to see something not obvious. Then compare it to Detect (Pedophiles), which are not as rare as you think (I played DnD with the CreepCleric), but still Rare? Then my analysis might be good for something, but that only costs 5pts *and* I'm bypassing Secret, Imprisonment or Exile. It won't happen as often, but shouldn't there be some other factor here that determines the cost?

[McAllister]

I agree with you when it comes to minorities like Detect Homosexual Humans, or near 50-50 splits like Detect Female Humans, but some subsets are probably so broad (heterosexual humans, for example, or caucasian humans in certain parts of the world) that they shouldn't be priced differently from Detect Humans.

Idhybwm, but am I correct in assuming that Detect Metals CANNOT be used to determine "are there any sources of gold near me?" Rather, you'd have to Detect all the Metal near you and analyze it to determine its goldness? If that's the case, Filterable is probably a good +20%-+50% enhancement to allow Detect Metal to also function as Detect Lead, or Detect Gold, or Detect Mercury, etc.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by McAllister

Idhybwm, but am I correct in assuming that Detect Metals CANNOT be used to determine "are there any sources of gold near me?" Rather, you'd have to Detect all the Metal near you and analyze it to determine its goldness? If that's the case, Filterable is probably a good +20%-+50% enhancement to allow Detect Metal to also function as Detect Lead, or Detect Gold, or Detect Mercury, etc.

Earlier in the thread, Kromm stated obliquely that it can. I asked (extremely poorly and not in question format) what the mechanics on subcategories are, and have yet to get a response....

[Kromm]

As far as Detect is concerned: (1) the universe is arranged in nice, concentric circles, and (2) these circles are priced universally. If you want to depart from that, then you're into the realm of house rules. Go right ahead . . . just don't expect the results to be 100% rules-compatible.

As written:

All life (Very Common) [30] > humans (Common) [20] > humans of a particular sexuality, humans of one biological sex (Occasional) [10] > humans of one biological sex and a particular sexuality (Rare) [5]

The descriptive adjectives are relative to one another, within the supercategory . . . they make no claim that all of life, minerals, and energy are equally common, or that all of sorceresses, gold, and radar are equally rare. You always start with a "Very Common," 30-point superset that can't easily be generalized further and then start subdividing. Each reasonable level of categorization knocks you down one rarity level. That's just how the trait works.

Analysis is simply what the trait does, too. You can get rid of it with Vague, -50%, but Vague more about turning off the direction and quantity information than anything else.

All of which said, you could finesse things a bit to get this structure instead:

All life (Very Common) [30] > all life with biological sex (Common) [20] > all life of a particular sexuality, all life of one biological sex (Occasional) [10] > all life of one biological sex and a particular sexuality (Rare) [5]

That's slightly broader, but not as humanocentric.

[Refplace]

I think Senses in general and Detect in particular would make a nice Power Up.

[tantric]

Well, that's RAW shut and closed. Then, in Ubantu, which is decidedly off-kilter, Detect (Spirits), Vague isn't going to cost 15pts just because everyone has one, while Detect (Foes, ie Witches) costs 5pts because they are a tiny subset of the human race. Especially since Danger Sense costs 15pts. That totally violates the basic concept behind the rules. Besides, how do you rate Detect (Water)? What is that a subset of? It's rare in the universe and ubiquitous on Earth. Is this based on that language that Newton tried to invent?

Just out of curiosity, do all the Very Common->Rare traits work this way? How about Dependency? If you are Dependent on helium, is it Very Common because it is the second most prevalent element? If you are Vlad Dracula and Dependent (Soil of your Homeland) is it Very Rare? Then there's Weakness (Sunlight), which is meaningless to a Morlock or Drow, a serious problem for the Count.

Everything is supposed to be relative to your character, otherwise it can and will be abused. I thought that was one of the underlying principles of the game mechanics.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by tantric

while Detect (Foes, ie Witches) costs 5pts because they are a tiny subset of the human race. Especially since Danger Sense costs 15pts. That totally violates the basic concept behind the rules.

I think you're over-rating Detect (Witches) as a substitute for Danger Sense. Danger Sense is passive, while Detect (Witches) presumably needs to be activated.

[tantric]

Actually, I want my Spiritualists to be able to Detect (Spirits), but you can't swing a mongoose without hitting an ancestor in Ubantu, so it costs 20pts. Even if I cut this to half with Vague, it still costs the same as Medium, and Medium lets you talk with the spirits. In this setting, having Detect (Witches) is like being able to mint money.

And let me profusely apologize to Dr. Kromm for telling how his game works, its been a hard day. But I *hate* it when people tell me that something that makes no sense is good because it's in a book. I need explanations, not revelations. I thought the whole absolutist bit was abandoned with 3e and now with 4e, everything is strictly relative to the setting/circumstance.