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Old 02-26-2021, 09:30 PM   #1
awesomenessofme1
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Default Questions about Increased Range (LOS)

1) Is it valid for attack powers? It doesn't say it isn't, but it also doesn't say anything about 1/2D range. If it works with attacks, does it also max out 1/2D, or do you need to buy that separately?

2) Can you buy normal Increased Range and use that reduce the cost of Increased Range (LOS)? That will pretty much always be worth it if you're looking at an ability with no 1/2D, and I'm not sure whether it's a point crock or valid.
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Old 02-26-2021, 09:33 PM   #2
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: Questions about Increased Range (LOS)

Quote:
Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1 View Post
1) Is it valid for attack powers? It doesn't say it isn't, but it also doesn't say anything about 1/2D range. If it works with attacks, does it also max out 1/2D, or do you need to buy that separately?
Yes, if the ability can be used at range. Add Ranged (+40%) otherwise.

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Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1 View Post
2) Can you buy normal Increased Range and use that reduce the cost of Increased Range (LOS)? That will pretty much always be worth it if you're looking at an ability with no 1/2D, and I'm not sure whether it's a point crock or valid.
No, use the base range of the ability. Again, if it doesn't have a base range, add Ranged (+40%).
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Old 02-26-2021, 09:45 PM   #3
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Default Re: Questions about Increased Range (LOS)

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Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
Yes, if the ability can be used at range. Add Ranged (+40%) otherwise.
How does it interact with 1/2D, then?

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Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
No, use the base range of the ability. Again, if it doesn't have a base range, add Ranged (+40%).
Hmm. I'm not sure how I feel about that. It makes it a terrible decision to take in almost any game if it's one of the many advantages with no 1/2D, because that makes Increased Range cheaper. There's pretty much no scenario in which Range LOS will be more useful than Range 500,000.
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Old 02-26-2021, 10:05 PM   #4
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: Questions about Increased Range (LOS)

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Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1 View Post
How does it interact with 1/2D, then?
It essentially uses the base Max range to determine the cost of LOS. So 1/2D is effectively ignored for this trait.



Quote:
Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1 View Post
Hmm. I'm not sure how I feel about that. It makes it a terrible decision to take in almost any game if it's one of the many advantages with no 1/2D, because that makes Increased Range cheaper. There's pretty much no scenario in which Range LOS will be more useful than Range 500,000.
I'm not following here. Increased Range and Increased Range, LOS are incompatible. So it wouldn't come into the picture once you add it up. Unless of course you're suggesting that just buying Increased Range is better. In some instances, probably, yeah.
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Old 02-26-2021, 10:16 PM   #5
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Default Re: Questions about Increased Range (LOS)

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Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
I'm not following here. Increased Range and Increased Range, LOS are incompatible. So it wouldn't come into the picture once you add it up. Unless of course you're suggesting that just buying Increased Range is better. In some instances, probably, yeah.
It just seems odd to me that it's balanced around the price of Increased Range for abilities with 1/2D, and there's no change for ones that don't. There are a bunch of abilities where it might make sense that you have no practical reason at all to use it in 99% of campaigns.
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Old 02-27-2021, 05:44 AM   #6
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Default Re: Questions about Increased Range (LOS)

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Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1 View Post
Hmm. I'm not sure how I feel about that. It makes it a terrible decision to take in almost any game if it's one of the many advantages with no 1/2D, because that makes Increased Range cheaper. There's pretty much no scenario in which Range LOS will be more useful than Range 500,000.
Personally, I feel the decision to make abilities that lack a 1/2D be able to increase Range at half price was a mistake, and would therefore charge full price for it (in fact, I didn't realize they got it at half price until I checked the text after reading this).

If you maintain the half price nature of Increased Range for such abilities, I would suggest halving the price of Increased Range, LOS for them as well. That standardizes things so that Range 2000 and Increased Range, LOS are always the same price (just as they are for abilities with 1/2D).
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Old 02-27-2021, 10:55 AM   #7
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: Questions about Increased Range (LOS)

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Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1 View Post
It just seems odd to me that it's balanced around the price of Increased Range for abilities with 1/2D, and there's no change for ones that don't. There are a bunch of abilities where it might make sense that you have no practical reason at all to use it in 99% of campaigns.
That's fair. Personally, I think it's worth it for some instances. But that's fair.
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Old Today, 01:40 PM   #8
Plane
 
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Default Re: Questions about Increased Range (LOS)

Quote:
Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1 View Post
1) Is it valid for attack powers? It doesn't say it isn't, but it also doesn't say anything about 1/2D range. If it works with attacks, does it also max out 1/2D, or do you need to buy that separately?
I assumed it followed the standard B106 policy of "If applied to a ranged attack, each level increases 1/2D and Max." and since 1/2D is 10% of Max by default, 1/2D would be 1/10 of your Line of Sight.

I agree it does seem like a bit of an... oversight not to visit this in PU4p15 though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1 View Post
2) Can you buy normal Increased Range and use that reduce the cost of Increased Range (LOS)? That will pretty much always be worth it if you're looking at an ability with no 1/2D, and I'm not sure whether it's a point crock or valid.
If there is some kind of issue here, since we're told "This is the equivalent of the Sense-Based (Reversed) limitation" perhaps we could just apply that and use the regular Increased Range costs?

P105 which introduced that said it's only allowed on limitations which normally ignore DR, which makes you think Malediction (which has no 1/2d) but could possibly refer to Cosmic: Ignores DR too.

I guess there's sort of a magical-seeming component here to somehow being unable to target something behind cover that you can't see, but if it's magic-ish then I don't see why those parameters couldn't include direct-attack w/ cover as standard Innate Attacks use...

LOS is +0% if typical range is 2000 yards. Sight-Based (Reversed) is -20% and "Increased Range 5x" is +20% while it's +30% for 10x and +40% for 20x

The latter seems like what you would need to get from standard 10/100 to 200/2000.

If however you only bought up Max without buying up 1/2D, getting 10x only costs +20%.

So it seems like it would be fair to allow Increased Range: LOS on the basic two ranged attacks (Affliction and Innate Attack) so long as sight is just for Max and your 1/2D remains 10 yards.

Maledictions already can't target people you can't see if you lack some other targeting sense to "clearly perceive" them, so using that and taking Sight-Based Reversed (so no other targeting sense other than sight will do) could be the easiest approach.

I guess the problem there is Maledictions have a bunch of carriers like ignoring obstacles and DR which you might want to interact with your attack that needs visual contact, plus it has the problem of allowing resistance rolls which you might not want.
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