[DF] AD&D Levels and GURPS Will

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by zorg

Points as such do NOT convey special abilities. Only traits ever convey abilities. This is such a central, defining concept to Gurps that I don't see how it could be unclear; or how it could be changed and still be Gurps in a meaningful sense of the word.

Obviously, a specific magical trap might be triggered by any trait, combination of traits or lack of traits which the original wizard could reliably detect, but that's a completely different issue.

Technically, points are a measure of power of the character's allies, so a Summoner (DF 9) will be able to bind stronger creatures as he goes up in point value.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

Technically, points are a measure of power of the character's allies, so a Summoner (DF 9) will be able to bind stronger creatures as he goes up in point value.

Well, technically, points are a measure of the build-budget of a character's allies. That may translate into "power" or not, depending on what you buy with those points. You get a bigger budget, so you can make a more powerful ally, but it doesn't imply any specific characteristics to those allies. They could be quite powerful and effective in any given sense, but they aren't necessarily so. You just have more points to ensure that they are capable if you want them to be capable.

But I dunno b-dog, the more I read of your posts the more I feel like you really, really want to play D&D and find GURPS a very frustratingly bad match for what you want. Why not just play a class-and-level system? There are a lot of them out there, and you'll have less work to do on dungeons, etc. because of the greater availability of supplements.

[talonthehand]

Originally Posted by b-dog

Besides DF has templates for playrs to use and none of them are called janitor or lawyer or politician or housewife. All of the templates are heroes not regular joes with high mundane skill levels.

Well, there is an innkeeper.

[panton41]

Actually one thing I enjoy about GURPS is that you don't see a generic "must be level [X] [class] in order to [task to perform]" but more "must have [these traits] to [task to perform]" or even "anyone can attempt to do it, but [these traits] give bonuses" which makes a less diverse party more viable.

A game idea that fits that is where a non-adventurer type NPC(s) (or a very brave player(s)) must join the adventurer band to journey into A Very Bad Place because they're the only people who can perform the task. (I can think of several fantasy novels with that plot, but The Lord of the Rings, Terry Brooks' The Sword of Shannara and Raymond Feist's Magician books come to mind immediately.)

[tg_ambro]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

But I dunno b-dog, the more I read of your posts the more I feel like you really, really want to play D&D and find GURPS a very frustratingly bad match for what you want. Why not just play a class-and-level system? There are a lot of them out there, and you'll have less work to do on dungeons, etc. because of the greater availability of supplements.

This has the ring of a teacher informing a parent that their child must be held back a year. ;-)

In all seriousness, I'm inclined to agree with what Peter says. It's like what Mr. Stoddard does, use a different system for different types of campaigns, to get different feels and effects. Use DnD 4th ed (*shudder*) for the DF genre and GURPS for anything else.

[Zed]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

But I dunno b-dog, the more I read of your posts the more I feel like you really, really want to play D&D...

GU(WUYWTPSDND)RPS?
Generic Universal (well, unless you want to play something like DnD) RolePlaying System?

:D

B-Dog: There won't be a 1:1 mechanical equivalent for the whole not crapping your pants at the sight of scary monsters... But with GURPS, you are free to homebrew one up.

Model 1: levels = mini-templates. Requires lots of work! Have fun!
Model 2: Create an advantage: Been there, done that! Maybe work it sort of like Allies... the bigger the group/more powerful, etc, the more points it costs. Gain +4 (or whatever amount is important) to anti-crap-yer-pants-on-sign-of-trouble stat/roll for that particular monster or situation. Optionally, use "fake" CP that aren't part of the character to dole out the advantage on the side if you don't want people having to sink real CP into it.
Model 3: Number of game sessions character has been play/10 = beneficial modifier to the crap-yer-pants-roles-at-sign-of-trouble. (the divisor can be bigger or smaller depending on scope of game).

etc...

~Z

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by tg_ambro

This has the ring of a teacher informing a parent that their child must be held back a year. ;-)

Thank you.

I guess that the concept of power is difficult to define in GURPS and I know point value does not do it because a 1000 point house cleaner is less powerful than a 1000 point wizard. Maybe there is no way to have a rule that quantifies heroicness as easily as in class/level games. I was only writing this to try to find a way to make some things I thought were cool in AD&D and play them using DF. I mean in the example that I gave with the door with the wards upon it; what if Gandalf and Frodo were near this door? Well Galdalf has enough "power" to not fear the wards upon the door because he is an archmage while Frodo would likely be very afraid because he is not powerful enough. I don't know how to convey this with GURPS and maybe you can't.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by b-dog

Well Galdalf has enough "power" to not fear the wards upon the door because he is an archmage while Frodo would likely be very afraid because he is not powerful enough. I don't know how to convey this with GURPS and maybe you can't.

Gandalf is a demigod and has demigod-like traits, Frodo is an everyman and has everyman traits. It makes sense to make a demigod like an Istari with Unfazable, Fearlessness, Rule of 14, or even just high Will; it doesn't make sense to make an everyman with traits significantly above average because then you can't identify with them.

What exactly is that you like about GURPS? You don't like point-based characters, or the 3d6 bell-curve, or the way GURPS does power sources, and so on. What is it that you do like?

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Gandalf is a demigod and has demigod-like traits, Frodo is an everyman and has everyman traits. It makes sense to make a demigod like an Istari with Unfazable, Fearlessness, Rule of 14, or even just high Will; it doesn't make sense to make an everyman with traits significantly above average because then you can't identify with them.

That is what I mean, Gandalf is more powerful than Frodo. But with GURPS you have to explain which traits convey power and then find a way to use them. There should be more than just a high Will score to not feel fear for the wards on the door in my example.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

What exactly is that you like about GURPS? You don't like point-based characters, or the 3d6 bell-curve, or the way GURPS does power sources, and so on. What is it that you do like?

I really liked the books like Vikings, Middle Ages, Egypt, and Celtic Myth. There is also a lot that I like in the DF series and I also like the idea that you can create a different kind of creature to use as a PC. The only thing I thought was bad about power sources was the fact that vampires are dependant on mana because I feel that an unholy power source would be more appropriate for DF due to the fact that vampires are a curse.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by b-dog

That is what I mean, Gandalf is more powerful than Frodo. But with GURPS you have to explain which traits convey power and then find a way to use them.

Tolkien had to demonstrate Gandalf's power by his actions. He didn't just write "Gandalf the Grey (Celestial, WIZ/20) arrived at the party. He went up to Frodo (Hafling, COM/1) and said, '..."

There should be more than just a high Will score to not feel fear for the wards on the door in my example.

And you've gotten several suggestions as to what that might be. Magery or whatever Power Talent that you give Gandalf is probably a good choice since in LoTR it is a supernatural trait of the Istari.

I really liked the books like Vikings, Middle Ages, Egypt, and Celtic Myth.

The nice thing about GURPS historicals is that they are very adaptable to other systems, especially if you don't care for GURPS game mechanics.

There is also a lot that I like in the DF series and I also like the idea that you can create a different kind of creature to use as a PC.

There are plenty of Class/Level systems with flat probability that do this reasonably well. Have you seen Pathfinder?
EDIT:

The only thing I thought was bad about power sources was the fact that vampires are dependant on mana because I feel that an unholy power source would be more appropriate for DF due to the fact that vampires are a curse.

In general you seem to want power sources to be rigidly defined and enshrined in hard rules (the way that Gygax tried with the Positive and Negative Energy Planes) rather than being subject to individual setting assumptions.