Problems with GURPS and Age of Nelson stuff

[Agramer]

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

Are you sure this is the case? I'm no expert myself, but there must be many hundreds of historical ship battles on record. Are you saying that you're sure there has never been a action of this kind? Or maybe of a weak SoL engaging a superior SoL with the help of a companion frigate?
Hans

I am not an expert,but I have read tremendous amount of material about Napoleon wars lately,and in no instant did I see even a hint of it happening(Frigates defeating SOL 1-3rd rate).
Id love if someone could find link to battle that proves me wrong.

Except single instant of Frigate + Razzee SOL(Razee=ship with removed upper deck and so turned into heavy frigate) defeating French SOL.But even so ,they didnt defeat SOL,but SOL shipwrecked together with Frigate.Also due very heavy weather SOL was unable to open her lower gunports(or would sunk from sea entering through gunports) and was fighting with only upper weaker gundeck.

In smaller engagements Frigates were supporting SOLs in battle(since SOL must engage SOL and that gives Frigate freedom to engage since even single SOL broadside from close range would devastate Frigate),only in big fleet engagements they were not participating(Check battle of Nile or Trafalgar).

Truthfully it doesnt seem that logical to me also,and I still dont understand why was it so.Was difference in ships strength@integrity really so big(as modern Destroyer attacking Battleship) or was it cultural or ?!?.Since when we look at tonnage of those ships SOLs were only 2-3 times heavier than Frigates.

From top of my head(not positively sure this info is correct):
Building times for ships:
Sloop 3 masted: 6 months-1 year
Frigate :1-2 years
SOL: 3-5 years

Tonnage(this is not displacement tonnage):
Frigates 600-1200 tonns (600tonn ones had 24*9pounders,while 1000+ones had 36*18 pounders
Sols(1-3rd rate): 1700-2200 tonns

USS Constitution:1500 tonns (though American frigates are "freak" when compared to other contemporary navys frigates...and even they never attacked SOL)

Originally Posted by pyratejohn

Here's an interesting example of an action from 1740:

Originally Posted by WIKKI

Word was sent to Portsmouth and a squadron of three ships, consisting of the 70-gun ships HMS Kent, HMS Lenox and HMS Orford, under the command of Captain Colvill Mayne of Lenox, were prepared to intercept them.[

So that battle is 3* 3rd rate SOL vs 1* 3rd rate SOL

[pyratejohn]

Originally Posted by Agramer

So that battle is 3* 3rd rate SOL vs 1* 3rd rate SOL

Technically, yes. But look at the report. The Princessa was larger than any of the British 1st rates of the time, and during the battle the Brits were unable to open their lower gun ports, reducing their number of guns by half. In essence this represents a case of three 3rd rates versus 1 first rate.

[Agramer]

Originally Posted by pyratejohn

Technically, yes. But look at the report. The Princessa was larger than any of the British 1st rates of the time, and during the battle the Brits were unable to open their lower gun ports, reducing their number of guns by half. In essence this represents a case of three 3rd rates versus 1 first rate.

Yes ,but it was still battle of Ship of the line with their higher resilience than frigates have.

Also Princes with all ports had 28*32 pdrs +28*18 pdrs vs 3 ships with 28*18 pdrs.But those are total numbers.Broadside is only half that.
Though if some of Brit ships come from leeward,during battle, than they could also open lower ports due wind into sails tilting ship...and since report says they "pulled alongside her" they probably attempted to some from both sides with one or two ships on windward side and 3rd on leeward.
Another thing to consider is looking at damage ships suffered,which makes it clear that Princess tried to disable Sails+rig of Brittish ships to be able to run away,while Brits were pounding her hull thus inflicting greater dmg.

Also Princess didnt have enough crew to fight both broadsides effectively at same time.

You need 14 people to operate 32 pounder;7 man can operate it but at half speed.
You need 11 people to crew 18 pounder;6 can operate it at half speed.

So 28*32pdr *14crew=392
28*18pdr *11crew=308
=700 people...and you still need 50+to operate ship,10ish "powder monkies"(boys/woman/man bringing new charges from powder room),Chirurgion+helpers=3-5 people,officers....etc

And add on all of that around 20% of crew as Marines.

While Princess had a total complement of 480 man.

Also this ships were obsolete by the time of Napoleonic wars.
During Napoleonic wars 3rd rates had crew around 700ish and 1st rates around 950ish

Edit: I really enjoyed your website :D

[Þorkell]

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

(My own source is no proof of anything; it's a work of fiction by (IIRC) Patrick O'Brian. Fiction doesn't prove anything, of course. Still, Patrick O'Brian is supposed to be a pretty fair naval scholar in his own right, so it would surprise me to learn that he'd pulled something like that out of thin air.)

Just out of curiosity in which Patrick O'Brian book does a frigate attack a ship of the line?

Oh, and Agramer? That incident of a frigate attacking and defeating a ship of the line, was that when John Jervis (later Earl St. Vincent) did it? Or is my memory playing tricks with me?

[Agramer]

Originally Posted by Þorkell

Just out of curiosity in which Patrick O'Brian book does a frigate attack a ship of the line?

Oh, and Agramer? That incident of a frigate attacking and defeating a ship of the line, was that when John Jervis (later Earl St. Vincent) did it? Or is my memory playing tricks with me?

Book is "HMS Surprise" and Jack.As Frigate Surprise only exchanged single broadside with SOL...than SOL evaded further combat due fear of damage to sails@rigging so far away from any base.HMS Surprise was supported by numerous big Indiaman(East Indies Company ships..some with 50 guns).

Dont know;though that Admiral was famous for his battle at Cape St.Vincent.

I cant recall name of that 2 Frigates vs SOL battle;but I do recall it happened somewhere on Irish coast during Napoleonic wars after unsuccessful(primarily due bad weather) French expedition to send troops to Ireland.

[Þorkell]

Originally Posted by Agramer

I cant recall name of that 2 Frigates vs SOL battle;but I do recall it happened somewhere on Irish coast during Napoleonic wars after unsuccessful(primarily due bad weather) French expedition to send troops to Ireland.

Ah, HMS Indefatigable (Captain Edward Pellew), and HMS Amazon and their fight with Droits de l'Homme.

The action I was mixing up with it in my mind was John Jervis in HMS Foudroyant (a ship of the line) vs. another ship of the line.

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by Þorkell

Just out of curiosity in which Patrick O'Brian book does a frigate attack a ship of the line?

I can't remember exactly. It didn't actually happen; Jack was on a weaker ship facing a bigger one. I think it was a frigate vs. a small SoL, but I could be wrong. Anyway, he reflects (or explains to Maturin) that if there had only been another British frigate nearby, they could have had a go at the enemy, even though the two ships together would still have been outclassed (on paper) by the enemy ship (That's why I think it was two frigates vs. a SoL). But with two ships, one of them would be able to cross the enemy's T and thus gain the upper hand.

Could it be The Mauritus Command?

(I need to reread my O'Brians; it has evidently been too long).


Hans

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

I can't remember exactly. It didn't actually happen; Jack was on a weaker ship facing a bigger one. I think it was a frigate vs. a small SoL, but I could be wrong. Anyway, he reflects (or explains to Maturin) that if there had only been another British frigate nearby, they could have had a go at the enemy, even though the two ships together would still have been outclassed (on paper) by the enemy ship (That's why I think it was two frigates vs. a SoL). But with two ships, one of them would be able to cross the enemy's T and thus gain the upper hand.

Could it be The Mauritus Command?

(I need to reread my O'Brians; it has evidently been too long).


Hans

Ships of the line almost always traveled in large fleets because they were domination platforms rather then skirmishing platforms the way frigates were.
That is one reason a fight between several frigates and a ship of the line were rare.