Munchkin Apocalypse in a Tournament

[Jarl Wilm]

The Tournament rules don't have anything about Apocalypse yet, and I'm running a tournament in February. Discussing Munchkin Cthulhu, the tournament rules state: Tournament Rounds which use only
Munchkin Cthulhu cards – at all tables –
may use the “More Scary Cultist Rules.”
Rounds that combine Cthulhu with other
sets, either at a single table or with different sets
at different tables, should not use those rules, to
avoid disparity in Tournament Levels. In either
case, whether those rules are used should
be announced to all players, and (if the rules are used)
the rules should be explained before the games begin.

Since the Seventh Seal has the same sudden-death potential as the "More Scary Cultist Rule," does that mean we shouldn't use Apocalypse in tournaments; that we shouldn't use the Seals in tournaments; or that we should only play Apocalypse in tournaments where every table is playing either Munchkin Apocalypse or Munchkin Cthulhu?

[Mister Ed]

I played in an Apocalypse Tournament just this past weekend, and I found the way they determined who made it to the final table rather curious. It was a "points" system, where, when the game ended you got points equal to your level (and those points were doubled if you won the game).

I found this method rather unsatisfying, since it was very possible for somebody to win, yet get less points than somebody else at the table if they won by opening the Seventh Seal while they were at a lower level.

As it turned out, it didn't really matter because every game ended with the Seals being opened, and I think the winner always ended up with more points than anybody else at the table. But it just seems like winning the game, by EITHER method, should be weighted the same.

[Andrew Hackard]

This is the official stopgap answer: if you are the winner of a tournament round using either Cthulhu or Apocalypse, you are awarded Tournament Levels as though you had won by reaching the final level (10, unless you are playing Epic), even if you won by an alternate method.

The Tournament Rules don't reflect this yet, but I have no objection to being quoted on this until such time as we can revise the rules to make things fairer for the folks who really want to use those sets.

[Jarl Wilm]

Thanks, Andrew! Munchkin Cthulhu is very popular with my players, and so far people have really enjoyed Apocalypse too. I'm sure people will be glad to see them in the mix for the "Swampcon 2013 Munchkin Tournament."

[offsides]

How does this work for the non-winners, specifically for Apocalypse when the 7th Seal is opened? Do they just get tournament levels normally, even though the winner was determined by bonuses? The one concern with that is that the #2 "scorer" for winning purposes could be dead last for level purposes. I had this happen in a tournament I ran, but Apocalypse was the final only, so it wasn't as big a deal since it was winner-take-all at that point.

[Clipper]

It sounds to me that this is what the rule is there to combat, offsides. Otherwise, in Apocalypse, it's possible the winner of the game could get less points than the opponents he beats (even after the Level doubling). It seems fair that everyone else should get their Level as it shows how close they were to beating the game normally.

[Andrew Hackard]

If Cthulhu ends on Cultists: the winner(s) get Tournament Levels as though they had reached the final Level (10 normally, 20 if Epic). All other players receive the TLs for the Levels they actually attained.

If Apocalypse ends on the Seventh Seal: the winner(s) get Tournament Levels as though they had reached the final Level (10 normally, 20 if Epic). All other players receive the TLs for the Levels they actually attained.

Hmm, I see a way to consolidate these rules...

[offsides]

Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard

If Apocalypse ends on the Seventh Seal: the winner(s) get Tournament Levels as though they had reached the final Level (10 normally, 20 if Epic). All other players receive the TLs for the Levels they actually attained.

OK, I see your reasoning and have no issue with it, but I also see a potential gripe with it:

In all Munchkin sets except Apocalypse, the Tournament mechanic is "get levels above all else", since that's what earns your "score" in each round. In Apocalypse, it's "get levels above all else, unless the seventh seal is opened, in which case levels only matter if you DON'T have the most bonuses." Granted, gaining levels and gaining bonuses are often correlated, but it's not a guarantee. Thus, players can find themselves in a catch-22 situation of having to decide whether to go for levels OR bonuses, and hoping the game swings in the correct direction.

I'm not saying this isn't acceptable, just that I can see it being an unpopular ruling in some circles. But I do agree that it follows the KISS principle.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Andrew Hackard]

Originally Posted by offsides

Thus, players can find themselves in a catch-22 situation of having to decide whether to go for levels OR bonuses, and hoping the game swings in the correct direction.

Right -- just like in the regular game. This is a feature, not a bug. Apocalypse rewards attentive play.

[offsides]

Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard

Right -- just like in the regular game. This is a feature, not a bug. Apocalypse rewards attentive play.

Except that in Tournament Play, bonuses count for NOTHING at the end of the game, and so focusing on items over levels is normally a no-win strategy. I'm not saying it's a bug, just that it's a big wrinkle in the ultimate goal of the game vs. every other set under Tournament conditions.

Either way, you've answered the question definitively, and that's good enough for me.