[DF] On Sense of Duty (Nature) and Stealing Flying, Fire-Breathing Reptiles' Eggs

[Stripe]

Say you have a Dungeon Fantasy character with the Sense of Duty (Nature) disadvantage—you play a Druid or an elf, for example. From Dungeon Fantasy 3: The Next Level, p. 6, "[Sense of Duty (Nature) is] functionally equivalent to Charitable and Pacifism toward any plant or animal that isn’t actively in the process of eating the elf, and extends to beast-men, faeries, wildmen, and other non-technological races."

In the Dungeon Fantasy Role-Playing Game, Sense of Duty (Nature) disadvantage is defined in Adventurers on p. 66: "You’ll never harm a plant or animal that isn’t trying to harm you. If one is in need or danger, you’ll react as if Charitable (p. 58) or Selfless (p. 65). You must oppose plans that involve setting wildfires, felling trees, etc. You always side with wilderness over civilization."

At the start of the session while the PC party is in Town, the GM makes a successful quest-finding roll on your behalf that results in a quest to fetch a few reptile eggs out of the wild.

These SM +1 reptiles can fly and breath fire and have GURPS IQ 3 (and ST 12-15 or so)—they're animals, not "dragons." Their kind is sometimes legitimately known to attack villagers (e.g., children playing in the fields) and property such as goats and swine. There is no human settlement that won't complain if these animals are anywhere around, but of course, that also would be the case whether there are actual attacks by these animals or not.

Sometimes, the reptiles will form communal nests, and if so, they are known to guard their eggs until they hatch. However, they are usually solitary animals and eggs are abandoned once laid.

The game is a standard Dungeon Fantasy down-and-town dungeon crawl. Below are my questions to the reader. If your answer depends on some piece of information not presented, try to make a guess or assumption.

Would you participate in the quest or would you oppose it?

Would you take a loose egg from the wild if you found it unguarded? Would you buy one from the market if you found one on sale (and that was allowed by the quest)?

Would you steal the eggs from a protected nest? Kill the mother or mothers? Preemptively?

If you oppose taking the quest, would you try to stop the other PCs who would undertake it, or would you at least accompany them? If so, would you defend a comrade who was being attacked by a mother defending her egg? Save his or her life at the cost of the reptile's? Would you heal a comrade if he or she was injured in the fight when there are more reptiles to harm and eggs to steal?

Now, it's less important to my game—so I would rather get answers to the above questions—but what if fetching eggs wasn't part of the quest; instead, the quest is unrelated but the PC party encounters a group of these reptiles. The reptiles attack and are killed. There are a few of these eggs around and this is their natural habitat. Your PC party is their only unnatural threat. They're each worth $10,000 at town.

Would you harvest the eggs? Would you stop your comrades from harvesting them?

Thanks for reading and for sharing your personal opinions and insight!

[ericthered]

For me it would all come down to if these things are natural or not. There are many ways you can approach that, and they all have different answers.



In much of the source material, only animals that exist in the real world are considered natural. Sometimes this is extended to oversized versions of extant creatures and to prehistoric beasts. I could see a druid saying that these are corrupted by magic and that he has no problem getting rid of them.



On the other hand, you can look at how these beasts interact with nature: do they seem to naturally fit in? Do they despoil forest? or do they act like normal predators? If they really act like animals, an argument can be made to treat them as such.



In play, I'd probably say "my Naturalist skill is 14 and I rolled a 12, do I consider these things natural?"


If they are animals, I'd oppose the hunting trip, though I can't say how vigorously. Stealing an egg from its mother feels like breaking the vow, and I'd oppose that. Buying one someone already stole feels distasteful, but I can see the druid turning up his nose and holding his tongue. Taking an orphan egg from the wild wouldn't violate the code (as long as it was going to die anyways) and I could see the druid actively participating in that quest.


The form the opposition takes would be entirely dependent on the rest of the character's disadvantages, but my gut instinct is that the druid doesn't come along on the trip.

[Bruno]

It sounds like orphaned eggs are normal for the species, and not abandoned to die, just hidden to hatch on their own (sea turtle eggs are not abandoned to die, they're abandoned to hatch, for example).

In general, as a player hearing that description, I would assume they are animals and covered under the SoD. I would oppose stealing the eggs as much as I would raiding crocodile nests (which are defended) and sea turtle nests (which are not).
If there are nuisance fire reptiles near a community, I would try to identify and rectify whatever is forcing them to enter humanoid turf (destruction of habitat, over-hunting of prey species causing hunger, etc), or to relocate them.
If there are fire reptiles near a community who are not being a nuisance but are still targeted for extirpation, I would try to work with the community to change their attitude and approach (and meanwhile see about relocating the animals).

[naloth]

SoD nature involves protecting "nature." The PC probably wouldn't care that critters are bothering people, but the PC would care if the critters are getting unduly hunted or being a nuisance to the natural environment.

Relocation might be for the best or even a bit of population culling to keep critter population under control. On the other hand, if the critter needs that environment or is being hunted to extinction, I suspect they will defend the critter rather than the settlement.

[ArchonShiva]

Originally Posted by Stripe

You always side with wilderness over civilization."

This is important — the answer to a lot of these questions is “You put your village in the wrong spot. You could move.”

...quest...

Note that “side with” doesn’t mean “refuse to negotiate”. If there was a reasonable plan to make the village safer while preserving habitats etc., you could go along with that as “best thing for everyone” or even “if we can’t co-exist, the humans will kill nature.”

In this case, there is no hint that this is in any way useful to the creatures. Even if Greed or something came into play, you really should try to turn down the quest and feel super bad about going. Your teammates should worry about you going Jake Sully on them.

Would you take a loose egg from the wild if you found it unguarded? Would you buy one from the market if you found one on sale (and that was allowed by the quest)?

Buying from market probably makes a potential newborn animal safer or more free, no issue there. Taking loose egg if it seems abandoned, to deliver to safety, seems okay. Even selling it to someone who seems like they would raise it right seems okay, as the alternative is probably starving. And track them down if they make it a circus animal.

Would you steal the eggs from a protected nest? Kill the mother or mothers? Preemptively?

Already answered for quest, heck no for random encounter. Maybe weird case like trying to raise your own animal companion, or trying to reintroduce diversity into a dying population etc. Basically, are you acting as a poacher or a wildlife warden?

If you oppose taking the quest, would you try to stop the other PCs who would undertake it, or would you at least accompany them? If so, would you defend a comrade who was being attacked by a mother defending her egg? Save his or her life at the cost of the reptile's? Would you heal a comrade if he or she was injured in the fight when there are more reptiles to harm and eggs to steal?

Heal, yes. Defend or save life at the cost of reptile’s, with SoD team, probably yes — but with a strong “Look what you made me do!”, and might spend some play time painfully lecturing them. And maybe consider changing the composition of the team you adventure with, or where you’ll go with them, if they seem unrepentant.

...not a quest... The reptiles attack and are killed. There are a few of these eggs around and this is their natural habitat. Your PC party is their only unnatural threat. They're each worth $10,000 at town.

Would you harvest the eggs? Would you stop your comrades from harvesting them?

Are those eggs safe there? Can they survive? Will taking them make their life better? Think of the eggs as rescued bandits’ children. Can the be safely left there? Maybe help them find jobs matching their skills (as mounts?)

It’s not like elves raid chicken coops to save the fowls, or are canonically vegan, or don’t use mounts. But “those pesky natives unwisely chose to live where we would build our town” should sound as convincing to you as it does to the first nations now.

[Dalin]

I largely agree with Bruno's interpretation. Based on the description, these sound natural, not unlike wolves in our world (I know environmentalists who support the reintroduction and protection of wild wolf populations, and I know ranchers and farmers who do not).

If I had SoD (Nature), I would vigorously oppose any plans to hunt or interfere with the fire lizards, including preemptive attacks. If my fellow PCs wanted to accept the quest, I would argue for adjusting the parameters. So, if it was about eliminating a nest near a community, I might suggest relocating the nest to a more distant wilderness location. If we needed to show evidence of the destroyed nest, we could have a jolly good time looking around for recently hatched eggshells to present. (Barring Truthfulness, of course!) I would do my best to avoid antagonizing lizards so that we wouldn't have to fight them, but I would defend myself and my companions. In such a case, however, I would prefer nonlethal options or I might bind wounds, use a healing potion, etc., on unconscious lizards before hightailing it out of there. No harvesting eggs except to help relocate them to a safer location. I don't know about purchasing them; that would depend on the circumstances of the plot and my character concept.

In general, as a PC with a disadvantage like this, I try not to derail the adventure or my fellow PC's goals. This is especially true if I also have SoD (Adventuring Companions). On a meta level, the GM usually knows about my disads and will thus expect my character's reaction. But sometimes GMs forget things (I know I do!), in which case I try to provide in-character suggestions and ideas to adapt the plot in a way that both honors the GM's prep work and doesn't force me to ignore my core character traits.

If the players have created characters with opposing characteristics that are bogging down the game (as opposed to creating fun conflicts), it's worth having an out-of-character conversation about goals and expectations. If four-of-five players are hell-bent on playing fire lizard poachers, then I need to come up with a new character (or play at a different table).

[evileeyore]

I'm a lot 'looser' with my definition of SoD simply because I hate disads that say "Nope, we can't go on this adventure!" and SoD is a big ole pain in the butt that way.


So, I allow for a Naturalist roll for the SoDer to figure out either someway to accomplish the mission while respecting and protecting nature, or just to realize "This is good for nature" (or as one of my Druid Players once put it "It's the cycle of life baby" while talking about why hunting is okay as long as you don't overdo it).

Like setting a wildfire? Maybe it's wildfire season and the forest needs to burn. Maybe too many dragons are already plaguing the area and it's time for their natural predator to thin the population. Maybe newly hatched dragons will instinctually turn on one another if there are too many in the clutch, so by stealing the smallest ones and replacing them with packs of dried meats, the Druid will be saving a few animals and helping the remaining clutch to thrive.


TL/DR: I have SoD make the job harder, not make the job undoable.

[Anthony]

I don't see any evidence from the original description that the lizards are being a problem for the village, this is just a 'go out into the wilderness and collect some eggs' quest.

The answer would, I think, depend on what the eggs were going to be used for (this also applies in situations where it isn't a quest, just something found); most uses will be no, but not all.

[Bruno]

Purchasing eggs only helps sustain the market for those eggs. Making a business out of killing fire reptiles to steal their eggs to sell to conservationists is ... well... counter-productive to conservation.

[Colarmel]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Purchasing eggs only helps sustain the market for those eggs. Making a business out of killing fire reptiles to steal their eggs to sell to conservationists is ... well... counter-productive to conservation.

With perhaps the exception of some sort of invasive species that is depopulated in its native habitat and overpopulated in its new habitat. But that doesn't appear to be the situation with Stripe's parameters.