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Old 06-08-2013, 08:42 AM   #31
jacobmuller
 
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Default Re: Everyone get +4 for free against berserkers

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Originally Posted by Gnomasz View Post
This makes me wonder: shield arm is always considered to be behind cover (-4 to hit instead of -2). Is there a way to use shield as a cover for torso? (cover is the real passive defense for me - it just makes it harder to hit you)
You can always try TBones shield rules - good stuff. His weblink is in post #19.
I'd think Cover was what a Berserker was using his shield for (after he'd chewed the psycho-glue off).

Hmm, Kromm suggests Committed Attack and TBone toyed with -4 Defense... Tiz a quandry - which Would be best. To quote a rather silly TV show "Fight!":D

Secondary thought: could you do Aimed ranged fire as a Committed Attack - your sniper gets a Dodge...
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:39 AM   #32
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Default Re: Everyone get +4 for free against berserkers

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Originally Posted by jacobmuller View Post
Secondary thought: could you do Aimed ranged fire as a Committed Attack - your sniper gets a Dodge...
Technically, you could, bull all out ranged only gives you +1, commited would equal 1/2, since you can't have skill of 14.5, it's kinda useless. However, tactical shooting states that Aimed attacks are all out attacks, so, no, you can't.
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:46 AM   #33
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Default Re: Everyone get +4 for free against berserkers

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Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos View Post
Technically, you could, bull all out ranged only gives you +1, commited would equal 1/2, since you can't have skill of 14.5, it's kinda useless. However, tactical shooting states that Aimed attacks are all out attacks, so, no, you can't.
I suppose you could argue that a Committed Attack providing no to-hit bonus wouldn't be utterly useless, if it allowed you to use your Aim bonus on the attack. I don't really see the point in doing that though; the rules in TS serve nicely and feel realistic.
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Old 06-08-2013, 11:00 AM   #34
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Default Re: Everyone get +4 for free against berserkers

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Okay, but it's also unrealistic. There's certainly a wide range of offense vs defense, but the situations where you aren't using some degree of evasive movement are basically zero.
Not really, there's plenty of situations where you fully put yourself out there in your attack, leaving you totally vulnerable if you fail your attack(s) and your target doesn't have to defend.

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If a maneuver translates as 'why would I ever use this', it's not fine. Unless you're basically untrained, all-out attack is a terrible option.
Then the issue is that All-out-Attack isn't doing a good enough job of representing the fact that during the AoA you're pushing them so far, so hard, and so fast, that if they don't put everything they've got into defending themselves they're going to get trashed, pressing them back unless you fail or they're All-out-Defending.

Stop hits are a valid way of stopping an AoA, but other than that normally you have to defend and retreat during that type of flurry, waiting for your opening as the attacker spends themselves, but when dealing with a truly skilled attacker fully dedicated in AoA offensive mode, being able to simply defend and hit him back as if the attacker is a defenseless target is actually a modeling failure.
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Old 06-08-2013, 11:08 AM   #35
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Default Re: Everyone get +4 for free against berserkers

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Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto View Post
I've considered this but I haven't found a satisfactory way to apply it in all cases - not without ditching DB and saying shields are just cover. Which I've never playtested myself that I can recall.
Blocking and interposing a shield between an attack and the target are two different things which aren't being taken into account.

Someone vigorously attacking you while holding a shield at the proper angle isn't actively blocking with said shield, they're simply interposing that shield as cover, depending on their angle of attack they're only leaving their head and legs as targets, and even those targets you'll have to attack from angles which avoid the shield.
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Old 06-08-2013, 11:45 AM   #36
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Default Re: Everyone get +4 for free against berserkers

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Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
Then the issue is that All-out-Attack isn't doing a good enough job of representing the fact that during the AoA you're pushing them so far, so hard, and so fast, that if they don't put everything they've got into defending themselves they're going to get trashed, pressing them back unless you fail or they're All-out-Defending.

Stop hits are a valid way of stopping an AoA, but other than that normally you have to defend and retreat during that type of flurry, waiting for your opening as the attacker spends themselves, but when dealing with a truly skilled attacker fully dedicated in AoA offensive mode, being able to simply defend and hit him back as if the attacker is a defenseless target is actually a modeling failure.
Not half as bad a modeling failure as if an AoA could confidently expect to overwhelm anything but an All Out Defense...because the All Out Defense has to be declared first to work.
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Old 06-08-2013, 12:01 PM   #37
Peter V. Dell'Orto
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Default Re: Everyone get +4 for free against berserkers

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Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
Then the issue is that All-out-Attack isn't doing a good enough job of representing the fact that during the AoA you're pushing them so far, so hard, and so fast, that if they don't put everything they've got into defending themselves they're going to get trashed, pressing them back unless you fail or they're All-out-Defending.
That's one image of All-Out Attack, but it's generally going to be true only with fighters of similar skill, or where the defending fighter is concerned by multiple frenzied attacks. It can have that effect, but I think realistically, if someone can keep their cool and recognize you're wide open and counter attack, the all-out attacker is toast. Putting no thought into defense is foolish against a fighter who won't flinch at your attacks. Also realistically, people with something to lose might prefer to just weather the storm with All-Out Defend and then counter when you get tired, but I don't think it's automatically so. Not everyone turtles in the face of danger, regardless of how much of a flurry comes at them. I suspect (and from what I've observed) the really experienced types don't just cover and wait if they see you are wide open for a counter.

Allowing a berserker to get a free Intimidation attempt or force a Fright Check (see Mind Games in GURPS Martial Arts) might be nice, though. Roll it up into the disadvantage as a another little freebie, or allow them to buy the appropriate perk for it. That way frothing all-out attacking berserkers are kinda scary, but don't automatically force brave types not to just ignore that frothing and kill them dead.
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Old 06-08-2013, 12:56 PM   #38
Ze'Manel Cunha
 
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Default Re: Everyone get +4 for free against berserkers

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Not half as bad a modeling failure as if an AoA could confidently expect to overwhelm anything but an All Out Defense...because the All Out Defense has to be declared first to work.
No, you declare All Out Defense when you see the need while being attacked, during your defense "turn", having to declare it first during your previous attack "turn" would mean you're psychic.

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Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto View Post
That's one image of All-Out Attack, but it's generally going to be true only with fighters of similar skill, or where the defending fighter is concerned by multiple frenzied attacks.
Not really, you're good enough to know that when you totally overmatch someone you just drive in at them, your attacks overwhelming them so that they must concentrate on defending themselves until they fail, and you finally land your strikes on them and they either surrender or get their asses handed to them.

The attack itself is the defense, since by preventing openings during the attack, unless the defender is good enough to stop hit, they'll be driven back while you have the advantage.

It's All out Attacking by the person with the weaker skills which creates the situation where the better skilled person just takes the flurry and overcomes it to hit openings the weaker defender can never strike at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto View Post
It can have that effect, but I think realistically, if someone can keep their cool and recognize you're wide open and counter attack, the all-out attacker is toast.
Which generally happens when the defender is more skilled than the attacker.

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Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto View Post
Putting no thought into defense is foolish against a fighter who won't flinch at your attacks.
If you're good enough, the defender will need to put all they have into defending, if you're not pressing them, then you're not good enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto View Post
Also realistically, people with something to lose might prefer to just weather the storm with All-Out Defend and then counter when you get tired, but I don't think it's automatically so. Not everyone turtles in the face of danger, regardless of how much of a flurry comes at them. I suspect (and from what I've observed) the really experienced types don't just cover and wait if they see you are wide open for a counter.
It's not about turtling, it's about being overmatched and doing all you can scrambling just to survive that incoming flurry of blows.

The really experience types won't be overmatched, they just attack into the flurry.
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Old 06-08-2013, 01:07 PM   #39
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Default Re: Everyone get +4 for free against berserkers

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Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
No, you declare All Out Defense when you see the need while being attacked, during your defense "turn", having to declare it first during your previous attack "turn" would mean you're psychic.
...Except that you can't do that in GURPS. There is no "defense 'turn'" and you can't retroactively declare AoD.
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Old 06-08-2013, 01:08 PM   #40
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Default Re: Everyone get +4 for free against berserkers

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Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
No, you declare All Out Defense when you see the need while being attacked, during your defense "turn", having to declare it first during your previous attack "turn" would mean you're psychic.

.
Nevertheless that's how it works. When you choose Maneuvers at the start of _your_ Turn you can pick All-out Defense and are in All-out Defense until the start of your next Turn. this si the only way you can get the benefits. There are not separate "Attack" and "Defense" parts of your Turn. There is only your whole Turn and you must chose at the beginning of that Turn.

So AoD and AoA are temporally asymmetrical. With AoA you give up an attack _now_ to gain a Defense benefit lasting 1 second. With AoA you give up all Defense in the next 1 second for an Attack benefit _now.

This is why choosing AoD does not signal to the canny fighter that he's free to AoA. That tends to work out badly for the guy in AoA.
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