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Old 04-20-2021, 12:29 PM   #11
maximara
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Default Re: Pricing Magery for Low Mana Only

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
My only advice to people who want to experiment with GURPS rules and modifications? ALWAYS remember to look for the cascade/domino effect of making that change.
I agree but there is the issue with what got dubbed "Partial Mana Enhancer" in the GURPS wiki:

"One level of Mana Enhancer still raises no mana to low mana (skip very low mana), but raises very low mana to low mana, too – not to normal mana."[1]

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Mechanics-wise this really makes no sense. It makes even less sense in Continuous Mana settings in that normal mana ranges from -2 to +2, low is -3 to -7. and very low mana is -8 to -10.
---
There are just some places in the game where the rules don't seem to follow a logical progression making the effects of altering them less obvious.

In a Continuous Mana setting would this special version of magery stop at -2 or go all the way up to 0?
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Old 04-20-2021, 12:44 PM   #12
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Default Re: Pricing Magery for Low Mana Only

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I think the assumption here is that the caster already has "enough" Magery to function just fine in Regular Mana and the like (so meets prerequisites and the like), such that he/she is in the region where Magery functions entirely as a Talent.


I'm not entirely certain as to what you mean by the above, but where I had followed a given logic train, it was based upon past ruling for One College Magery. If your Magery is off again and on again - depending upon WHEN your magery is functional is when it is deemed sufficient for learning spells. Magery that functions only in Low Mana zones is no different than Magery that only functions at Night in the sense that all "functions" of that magery is turned off at night.

All in all, GURPS THAUMATOLOGY has ways to customize how magic works using GURPS MAGIC for 4e. I rather like the suggestions given, as they all have been (with the exception of the Wild Mana) something I've played with one way or another.

Be aware - if the original poster wants to rule that Magery that is not functional at all times can still be utilized for purposes of learning spells - that is up to them. Just as I don't allow the discounted time for learning rules in down time as written, my "houserule is discounted time = (Actual Magery - Required Magery) x 10/100. It never made sense to me that a Magery 3 requisite for learning a spell automatically grants a 30% discount in learning just because the character has magery 3.

So, house rules are created when GM's think their rule makes more sense than the official rule. Discounts for advantages are strictly the domain of the GM who allows them into their game. So, no right or wrong way per se as far as I'm concerned. Sometimes you have to experiment with the rules to find out what works - and what doesn't.
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Old 04-20-2021, 02:46 PM   #13
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Default Re: Pricing Magery for Low Mana Only

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I think the assumption here is that the caster already has "enough" Magery to function just fine in Regular Mana and the like (so meets prerequisites and the like), such that he/she is in the region where Magery functions entirely as a Talent.
I was actually making the assumption "Only counts for a +1 per level to every spell" was worth -0%.

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
In a Continuous Mana setting would this special version of magery stop at -2 or go all the way up to 0?
If I was using this with Continuous Mana, I wouldn't use Magery at all, instead the 10 point Mana Enhancer variant (T60), with a similar limitation. I'd treat "Useless for things you're carrying" as -0%.

--

I started tooling around with this as largely direct way of making Caithnesser mages more powerful within Caithness without making them very powerful outside of Caithness. Given in Banestorm most of the low mana is concentrated in one area, it seemed hard to come up with a limitation value.
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Old 04-20-2021, 07:17 PM   #14
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Default Re: Pricing Magery for Low Mana Only

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Hmn, I guess it gets muddy since Magery is so Talent like... That would totally work with the Imbue advantage!

I'm not really fond of the Magery adjustment anyway, as it increases the cost of all levels of Magery for a fixed effect.

So the most obvious solution is probably best:

Mana Enhancer (Accessibility, Only in Low Mana Areas, -60%) [20]

I think -60% is fair, given that it removes the possibility of obtaining that Very High Mana fun and doesn't let you cast spells in a no mana area.
Yeah, that might work out ok. Hmmm.
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Old 04-20-2021, 10:39 PM   #15
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Default Re: Pricing Magery for Low Mana Only

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Originally Posted by TGLS View Post
If I was using this with Continuous Mana, I wouldn't use Magery at all, instead the 10 point Mana Enhancer variant (T60), with a similar limitation. I'd treat "Useless for things you're carrying" as -0%.
The flaw there, from a standard rules prospective, is high mana does not eliminate Magery requirements. One would still need Magery 1+ for some spells no matter how high the mana level.

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Originally Posted by TGLS View Post
I started tooling around with this as largely direct way of making Caithnesser mages more powerful within Caithness without making them very powerful outside of Caithness. Given in Banestorm most of the low mana is concentrated in one area, it seemed hard to come up with a limitation value.
The thing is there has always been something weird with Yrth and magery. The GURPSwiki goes into it as The Magery-Spell Paradox:

"In the GURPS Classic version of Yrth (when Magery was called Magical Aptitude) there was an interesting paradox created.

In the correction note for the first printing of information on Yrth it is stated: "Since Caithness is a low-mana area, the example given for the number of people to know spells is wrong. 1 in 50 might know a spell or two in a high-mana area, 1 in 100 in a normal-mana area, 1 in 500 in a low-mana area. Perhaps half these people possess Magical Aptitude. Of course, some people with Magical Aptitude, especially in low-mana areas, will never learn magic or even become aware of their talent.

(...)

Why would anyone in a normal-mana or low-mana without Magery learn a skill that in that area they would never be able to use? The only way that statement makes any sense is if the early form of "Clerical" magic where followers of a deity could cast spells as if they were mages without having Magery existed on Yrth.

In 4e it is expressly stated that Power Investiture is unknown on Yrth but elsewhere it is stated that Ritual Magic does exist on Yrth, with the Closer To Heaven talent providing a bonus to the skill. (Banestorm pp.184) Maxed out to +4 this puts non mage Ritual Magic wizards at only a -1 compared to their mage counterparts.

The only thing is “Fractional” Magery 0 is far cheaper in terms of points (ie time) then Closer To Heaven (+1/level vs 5 or 6/level) but allowing that would run headlong into the whole only half the people who know spells have Magery (of any type) issue."
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Old 04-21-2021, 07:26 AM   #16
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Default Re: Pricing Magery for Low Mana Only

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The flaw there, from a standard rules prospective, is high mana does not eliminate Magery requirements. One would still need Magery 1+ for some spells no matter how high the mana level.
I meant specifically for the offset low mana penalty magery I was specifying earlier.
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Old 04-22-2021, 06:21 AM   #17
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Default Re: Pricing Magery for Low Mana Only

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
The flaw there, from a standard rules prospective, is high mana does not eliminate Magery requirements. One would still need Magery 1+ for some spells no matter how high the mana level.



The thing is there has always been something weird with Yrth and magery. The GURPSwiki goes into it as The Magery-Spell Paradox:

"In the GURPS Classic version of Yrth (when Magery was called Magical Aptitude) there was an interesting paradox created.

In the correction note for the first printing of information on Yrth it is stated: "Since Caithness is a low-mana area, the example given for the number of people to know spells is wrong. 1 in 50 might know a spell or two in a high-mana area, 1 in 100 in a normal-mana area, 1 in 500 in a low-mana area. Perhaps half these people possess Magical Aptitude. Of course, some people with Magical Aptitude, especially in low-mana areas, will never learn magic or even become aware of their talent.

(...)

Why would anyone in a normal-mana or low-mana without Magery learn a skill that in that area they would never be able to use? The only way that statement makes any sense is if the early form of "Clerical" magic where followers of a deity could cast spells as if they were mages without having Magery existed on Yrth.

In 4e it is expressly stated that Power Investiture is unknown on Yrth but elsewhere it is stated that Ritual Magic does exist on Yrth, with the Closer To Heaven talent providing a bonus to the skill. (Banestorm pp.184) Maxed out to +4 this puts non mage Ritual Magic wizards at only a -1 compared to their mage counterparts.

The only thing is “Fractional” Magery 0 is far cheaper in terms of points (ie time) then Closer To Heaven (+1/level vs 5 or 6/level) but allowing that would run headlong into the whole only half the people who know spells have Magery (of any type) issue."
Normally - I wouldn't bother to read posts by Maximara, not for any reason other than personal friction. I placed him on ignore largely so that I would not get into verbal conflicts that risked being banned. Only because I logged into the forums without my sign on, did I see the "ignored post" and thought...

This doesn't match my recollections.

So, Maximara - this isn't directed at you at a personal level, Lord knows how often my recollections can be proven to be wrong. It is simply a correction based on my recollection and digging out the actual paper copies of the following:

GURPS FANTASY 1st edition
GURPS FANTASY 2nd edition, first printing
GURPS CLASSIC FANTASY (to insure that the PDF matched that of GURPS FANTASY 2nd edition, first printing...

The quoted section By Maximara is actually thus (Bolding and underlining mine)

Perhaps 1 human in 50 might know a spell or two or have a knack in a high-mana area; 1 in 100 in a normal mana area or 1 in 500 in a low-mana region such as Caithness. In a high-mana area, perhaps half of the magic-users will actually possess Magical Aptitude. Of course, some people with Magical Aptitude, especially in low-mana areas, will never learn magic or even become aware of their talent.

This is what the PDF version of GURPS FANTASY says on page 11. Conferring with my paper version of the same book - which is a first printing by the way, it says the exact SAME thing as the PDF 3rd printing says.

So, all that remains then, is to see if GURPS FANTASY 1st edition says the same. Page 51 of GURPS FANTASY 1st edition, has this to say:

Most of Yrth has a "Normal" level of mana; magic is strong and common. The Men of Yrth quickly learned magic, from the elder races and from the medieval wizards that crossed over. Wizards' Giulds -- where they are organized -- have a great deal of political power. However, Caithness lifes in a low mana area, and has little magic.
Perhaps one person in 50 knows a spell or two. One in 100 has magical aptitude; one in 500 might be a true practicing "Wizard"


The statement perhaps half have magical aptitude is simply a mis-quote or simply mis-remembering. Knowing how often I mess up, I'll assume that it is a simple mis-remembering.

So, back to the issue of being able to learn a spell that you don't have the magical aptitude to learn. It would seem, that only in GURPS THAUMATOLOGY where people can live in Wild Magic Zones, can anyone learn a spell they don't have the magical aptitude for. In that case, someone could learn the spell as a spell in a Wild Mana zone, but would it be the same spell as learned by someone who has to have magical aptitude?

Ponder this: upon leaving a Mana Wild Zone after having learned multiple spells despite disasterous critical failures for every single simple failure of a spell gone awry, will said individual still remember how to cast their spell in a mana high zone? Per the rules? I suspect not.

Per a GM saying "This is my Game universe - and I say YES!" then the correct answer is of course, Yes. :)

Last edited by hal; 04-22-2021 at 06:33 AM. Reason: Corrected man; to mana;
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Old 04-22-2021, 07:25 AM   #18
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Default Re: Pricing Magery for Low Mana Only

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The quoted section By Maximara is actually thus (Bolding and underlining mine)

Perhaps 1 human in 50 might know a spell or two or have a knack in a high-mana area; 1 in 100 in a normal mana area or 1 in 500 in a low-mana region such as Caithness. In a high-mana area, perhaps half of the magic-users will actually possess Magical Aptitude. Of course, some people with Magical Aptitude, especially in low-mana areas, will never learn magic or even become aware of their talent.

This is what the PDF version of GURPS FANTASY says on page 11. Conferring with my paper version of the same book - which is a first printing by the way, it says the exact SAME thing as the PDF 3rd printing says.
And here is what the errata (which is what I am citing) says:

"P. 51. Since Caithness is a low-mana area, the example given for the number of people to know spells is wrong. 1 in 50 might know a spell or two in a high-mana area, 1 in 100 in a normal-mana area, 1 in 500 in a low-mana area. Perhaps half these people possess Magical Aptitude. Of course, some people with Magical Aptitude, especially in low-mana areas, will never learn magic or even become aware of their talent."

That "In a high-mana area" does not exist in the errata and based on way the errata is worded the "half these people possess Magical Aptitude" refers to all mana levels.
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Old 04-22-2021, 07:43 AM   #19
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Default Re: Pricing Magery for Low Mana Only

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That "In a high-mana area" does not exist in the errata and based on way the errata is worded the "half these people possess Magical Aptitude" refers to all mana levels.
Alternatively, the errata is in error. This seems like something that we should ask for an official ruling on, though the devs don't have a lot of spare time.
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Old 04-22-2021, 09:08 AM   #20
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Default Re: Pricing Magery for Low Mana Only

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Alternatively, the errata is in error. This seems like something that we should ask for an official ruling on, though the devs don't have a lot of spare time.
That is the likely bet on both counts.

In every iteration of GURPS MAGIC, it states what can and can't be done in Low, Normal, High and Very High Mana.

In each instance, they all agree:

Low mana: Only those with magical aptitude (Magery) can cast spells within the area. (GURPS FANTASY first edition does mandate that the penalty for low mana spell casting is at -6, which was later standardized at -5. Additionally, Critical Failures are stated to have mild or no effects in a low mana area, but does not spell out the game mechanics of it)

Normal mana: only those with magical aptitude can cast spells within the area.

High Mana: Anyone can cast spells if they know them.

Very High Mana: Same as High Mana, save for energy spent on spells is recovered instantly.

Elsewhere in all sources - it states what the conditions are for studying spells. Bar none (in GURPS FANTASY 1st edition page 2, GURPS MAGIC 1st edition pg 4, GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition page 4, and GURPS MAGIC for 4e pg 6), you cannot learn a spell that you do not have sufficient magery for. If a spell has a requisite of "Magery X" then, without the level of Magery denoted by X, you cannot learn the spell, and if you cannot learn the spell, you cannon cast it.

So, what precisely is the errata supposed to fix specifically?

I've heard the theory etc of Clerical Magic etc as the reason for the fix. Problem is - GURPS MAGIC 1st edition pages 84 and 85 pretty much define what is involved with Clerical Magic. GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition lists Clerical Magic on pages 94 through 96.

GURPS FANTASY 2nd edition was published in 1990. GURPS MAGIC 1st edition was published in 1989, with GURPS MAGIC second edition presumably published in 1990 as well (going by the copyright information on the front page in GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition).

So, Clerical magic was already outlined under GURPS MAGIC 1st edition well before GURPS FANTASY 2nd edtion was published. Nothing stated thus far makes it seem as though the "errata" is even necessary, largely what ever the errata is supposed to fix, is not broken.

My best guess? Someone submitted the errata but did not lay out the full material through its evolution, and the person who accepted the errata did not have the time to follow through. But, absent ANY other material that actually supports the errata, I have no choice but to think "um, that doesn't make sense, and I don't belive it is a valid errata". As you may well guess - I'm no stranger to tossing out those things that make no sense in GURPS MAGIC games.

;)
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