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Old 02-09-2018, 08:16 PM   #1
Devil_Dante
 
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Default 1/2D range and scatter

hi again ^_^
Today's problem is about 2 things:
1)1/2D range for area of effect
2) scatter rules and dodging

1)for innate attack that has area effect enhancement, the 1/2D still remains, as well as for cones i guess. This means that after 1/2D the damage is halved. I think is a bit unintuitive but couldn t find any clues about this argument, so i supposed that 1/2D works for cone and AoE as for any other ranged attack
edit: B413 says:"damage does not usually decline with distance". What about 1/2D?

2) When someone is hit by an AoE, the only active defense is "dodge", B377. And could be possible to "dodge and drop" to move one step, in order to reach a cover (if any is nearby). I assume that, if you can reach a cover, you can reduce damage. If not, you are one step further away from the attack and, if you go out of attack's radius, you are safe.

Now, at B414, clearly says that if you miss the area attack, it scatters by the margin of failure. Pretty simple
The next sentence is pretty silly to me: "if enemy dodges, use his margin of success to determine distance instead".

So, what does this sentence mean? B377 says that you can take a step to find a cover, B414 says that you could make an attack scatters by margin of success. I can't understand how a success dodge can make an attack scatter, first of all. And it seems to go against the previous sentence.

I wander that if you dodge an aoe you can make it deviate! I have understood that against this attacks, you can only dodge for cover. Because even if you dodge you can only move by one step and if you are in the middle of a 3 meters AoE, you are still there and thus, you are hit by full power.
But at B414 says that, if you success by 3, you can evade a 3 meters AoE.
So, what am i reading wrong?

Thank you again!

Last edited by Devil_Dante; 02-10-2018 at 03:59 AM.
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Old 02-10-2018, 01:02 PM   #2
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Default Re: 1/2D range and scatter

The 1/2d rule is indeed a bit unclear.

For guided and homing it is clear as there it is not halved by RAW. (Because making say an artillery shot homing will obviously magically make it fly faster at maximum range. Silly me for thinking that physics do not work like that.).

For other attacks the "usually" clearly means GM discretion. For things like exploding shells it is quite clear as the explosive force does not cause less damage just because it has flown further. But for something like an Ultra Tech plasma weapon it might make sense that the splash will do less damage at long range if the plasma has radiated some of it's energy en route.

As for scatter: There are two cases for attacks on targets:
1) you miss: your failure makes it fly to some other place than intended.
2) you hit, but the target dodges: The success by gives the range how far away the effect will go off.

The case 2 is indeed kind of silly in the strict physics perspective as you attack will likely continue flying past the target a distance determined by your attacks speed and angle. So for example if you are firing a bazooka at a tank on top of a hill that dodges the shot will likely then fly the maximum range of the weapon, but if there is a wall immediately behind and enemy that dodges the attack will likely hit that wall.

But the rule is meant to be a gameable abstraction for people who do not like physics to determine how far the target is from the attack.
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Old 02-10-2018, 01:47 PM   #3
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Default Re: 1/2D range and scatter

The problem is only one about scatter: can t understand how dodge works. On page 377 says that dodging aoe only makes you do a step. On scatter rules page 414 says the attack scatters by margin of success of the dodger..

What should I use?
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Old 02-10-2018, 02:02 PM   #4
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Default Re: 1/2D range and scatter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil_Dante View Post
The problem is only one about scatter: can t understand how dodge works. On page 377 says that dodging aoe only makes you do a step. On scatter rules page 414 says the attack scatters by margin of success of the dodger..

What should I use?
Both if the attack targets you. On dodge you do a step AND the attack scatters.

If the attack targets the ground you only get the extra yard of distance(that may take you out from the area or reduce the damage as per B414)

Edit: also note that the extra yard only happens if you do a dodge and drop, but the scatter happens even without it if you are the target and successfully dodge the attack.
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Last edited by weby; 02-10-2018 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 02-10-2018, 02:17 PM   #5
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Default Re: 1/2D range and scatter

Ok.. That s sound right.. Even if by RAW is kinda messy.. Especially the second part you have said. Because on the scatter box at B414 there is no distinction between an aoe that targets an area or a person.

Anyway, stepping and make attack scatters is easy and pretty fast
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Old 02-10-2018, 02:22 PM   #6
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Default Re: 1/2D range and scatter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil_Dante View Post
hi again ^_^
Today's problem is about 2 things:
1)1/2D range for area of effect
2) scatter rules and dodging

1)for innate attack that has area effect enhancement, the 1/2D still remains, as well as for cones i guess. This means that after 1/2D the damage is halved. I think is a bit unintuitive but couldn t find any clues about this argument, so i supposed that 1/2D works for cone and AoE as for any other ranged attack
edit: B413 says:"damage does not usually decline with distance". What about 1/2D?
I don't think there's anything unclear here. 1/2D range works the way it says it does, and Cone and Area Effect make no difference to that.

In most cases Area Effect attacks should have 1/2D range equal to max range. That's not a requirement, it's just a guideline for how real and fictional things tend to work.


...Now, you want a problem, look at 1/2D range and Follow-Up effects. The text of Follow-Up makes no reference to 1/2D range and says that "A Follow-Up attack need only list its damage amount and type. All other details depend on the carrier attack." That seems like it should mean that the Follow-Up is subject to the same 1/2D effect as the carrier attack. With no way to modify it. When most things you'd want to model with Follow-Up clearly don't have that property.
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Old 02-10-2018, 02:22 PM   #7
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Default Re: 1/2D range and scatter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil_Dante View Post
Ok.. That s sound right.. Even if by RAW is kinda messy.. Especially the second part you have said. Because on the scatter box at B414 there is no distinction between an aoe that targets an area or a person.

Anyway, stepping and make attack scatters is easy and pretty fast
If area is attacked note the "There’s no defense roll, but any-
one in the area can dive for cover" part in the area attack.

Thus because the target does not get a dodge roll, the attack does not scatter from the hit location based on target dodge. Thus that rule applies only to attacks targeting the target.

The scatter only applies if they get a dodge.
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Old 02-10-2018, 02:26 PM   #8
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Default Re: 1/2D range and scatter

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
...Now, you want a problem, look at 1/2D range and Follow-Up effects. The text of Follow-Up makes no reference to 1/2D range and says that "A Follow-Up attack need only list its damage amount and type. All other details depend on the carrier attack." That seems like it should mean that the Follow-Up is subject to the same 1/2D effect as the carrier attack. With no way to modify it. When most things you'd want to model with Follow-Up clearly don't have that property.
Nope. That is not how follow up attacks work.

Follow up is only cares about two things:
1) If base attack hits, apply followup. If not, do not apply.
2) If the base attack penetrates DR, ignore DR for followup. If not, use full DR.

Edit: it should also be noted that the RLM FGM-148A Javelin in High Tech is illegal damage build by the rules as followup cannot have penetration modifiers...
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Old 02-10-2018, 02:32 PM   #9
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Default Re: 1/2D range and scatter

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Originally Posted by weby View Post
Nope. That is not how follow up attacks work.

Follow up is only cares about two things:
1) If base attack hits, apply followup. If not, do not apply.
2) If the base attack penetrates DR, ignore DR for followup. If not, use full DR.
Turns out this is true, but it would have been nice to present evidence rather than an unsupported assertion.

The needed citation is Basic p. 378.
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Old 02-10-2018, 02:57 PM   #10
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Default Re: 1/2D range and scatter

Quote:
Originally Posted by weby View Post
If area is attacked note the "There’s no defense roll, but any-
one in the area can dive for cover" part in the area attack.

Thus because the target does not get a dodge roll, the attack does not scatter from the hit location based on target dodge. Thus that rule applies only to attacks targeting the target.

The scatter only applies if they get a dodge.
But dove for cover is an option you can add to any dodge defense.. Isn't it?

Because in this case it means you have to dodge in order to use dive for cover. If you have no dodge you can t dive for cover!

About 1/2D: maybe I overthinked.. My bad. Thanks for clarification!
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