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Old 11-20-2014, 06:14 AM   #261
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Grappling - ruleset preferences and issues (Basic, Pyramid, MA, TG etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
There's a difference between 'we would like to discuss it in the B/MA context' or 'well, we do not like TG', and 'TG are a fan work that got published but is not part of real GURPS rules' (a hypothetical example of an attack on TG that mirrors the 'current rules' attitude).
OK I don't see "TG are a fan work that got published but is not part of real GURPS rules' as mirroring one poster describing them as the current rules at all.


That leaves aside the discussion on exactly what was meant by Current, which has already been had.

TBH I think the discussion comparing Basic/MA and TG is being effected by being held in the context of how TG / Basic is treated on this forum (which has nothing to do with rule or comparisons, but attitudes and perceptions)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Was going for analogy, not 100% identical rulings, but whatever, a dropped branch is a dropped branch.
Probably best

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
It's clear to me that the total combined utility is non-linear while the pricing isn't.
Given you don't now all the benefits it's a bit tough to say that with any precision (and given it's an issue based on lack of precision.....)

But as I said previously yes some bonuses do indeed have diminishing returns, but that is pretty much true for all of them all the time and was right for them in Basic as well. The question is does TG increase, decrease or pretty much leave the same balance of diminishing returns (see above).

Given the whole diminishing returns is so subject to context, i don't think we'll ever have an exact answer, and certainly not one that will remain true for very long.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
What do you mean only if both succeed or both fail?

The one thing that is non-linear is the chance of turning a failure/loss into a success. But reduction of MoF or increase of MoS is linear.
Same page previous paragraph:

"Each competitor attempts his success
roll. If one succeeds and the other
fails, the winner is obvious. If both
succeed, the winner is the one with the
largest margin of success; if both fail,
the winner is the one with the smallest
margin of failure."


This leaves aside that not all bonuses are applied in such contests anyway. But many are just one sided. Take the bonus to DX for extra arms in grappling to hit rolls in Basic/MA for example
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Old 11-20-2014, 06:30 AM   #262
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: Grappling - ruleset preferences and issues (Basic, Pyramid, MA, TG etc.)

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Yes, and as TG has different version of grappling form basic that has implications for those.
I'm not sure what TG's changes to number-of-arms-and-ST calculation has to do to affect the question whether extra arms granting a bonus to DX is part of mainstream GURPS rules or not. Varyon seems to have nailed that one issue pretty concisely.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
True, but as I said way back people saying "TG would let you do that like this" is not some sort fo grappling rules submission hold.
'W would let you do U' is not the same as 'stop using V because W is current'. The context of the quoted post was that I quoted Sound of One Hand Grappling, and Icelander objected by saying that TG is the current ruleset.
A less recent case is when a question is asked about handling a situation using B/MA mechanics (e.g. through modifiers to ST contests etc.), because the asker wants to add the ability to handle this one extra issue without changing anything else, but somebody will offer the whole of TG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
any more than "High tTech has stats for your particular requirement" is evidence of fans of the generic weapons list in basic being marginalised on the forum
The difference with High Tech, if we're going on another tangent, is how these stats can be plugged in. Primarily, High-Tech is a gearbook, so you can just add this gear to a game.
It does offer some changes, such as the Hiking rates. But those are pretty self-contained - you can either plug in the new rates or keep the old ones, and nothing else will be shaken.
It doesn't require one to, e.g., change the whole FP system used in a campaign to use Action Points in order to get the updated rates.
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Old 11-20-2014, 06:41 AM   #263
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Default Re: Grappling - ruleset preferences and issues (Basic, Pyramid, MA, TG etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
OK I don't see "TG are a fan work that got published but is not part of real GURPS rules' as mirroring one poster describing them as the current rules at all.
Mirroring in the sense of going in the opposite direction. I.e. if Poster A says that Book W is current and thus Book U is obsolete, then the the opposite claim would be for Poster B to say that Book W isn't suitable to being considered an update at all, while Book U is teh True Authority.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
TBH I think the discussion comparing Basic/MA and TG is being effected by being held in the context of how TG / Basic is treated on this forum (which has nothing to do with rule or comparisons, but attitudes and perceptions)
Well, people go into one of the two strongly-leaning camps, or into a/the centrist camp (primarily: use TG, B or MA depending on campaign type, don't get fixated on a single choice), depending on how they see the rules.
My primarily stake in the 'how it is treated' is that future rulings be compatible at least with the B/MA framework, though it would be nice for them to be compatible with both frameworks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Given you don't now all the benefits it's a bit tough to say that with any precision (and given it's an issue based on lack of precision.....)

But as I said previously yes some bonuses do indeed have diminishing returns, but that is pretty much true for all of them all the time and was right for them in Basic as well. The question is does TG increase, decrease or pretty much leave the same balance of diminishing returns (see above).

Given the whole diminishing returns is so subject to context, i don't think we'll ever have an exact answer, and certainly not one that will remain true for very long.

Same page previous paragraph:

"Each competitor attempts his success
roll. If one succeeds and the other
fails, the winner is obvious. If both
succeed, the winner is the one with the
largest margin of success; if both fail,
the winner is the one with the smallest
margin of failure."

This leaves aside that not all bonuses are applied in such contests anyway. But many are just one sided. Take the bonus to DX for extra arms in grappling to hit rolls in Basic/MA for example
But each +2 still allows you to take one level of Deceptive Attack, offset two levels of darkness, compensate for 2 SMs, and other such uses.
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Old 12-01-2014, 02:00 AM   #264
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Default Re: Grappling - ruleset preferences and issues (Basic, Pyramid, MA, TG etc.)

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Originally Posted by Yako View Post
Otherwise...


Maybe it would be useful to make a "technical grappling to Basic Set / Martial Arts" conversion of some of the rules and ideas, I did in particular like that it had some input on telekinesis, grappling and the effect of being lifted into the air as I myself had been discussing it on here.

If I get to it, I may read Technical Grappling more thoroughly myself and make notes on any good concept or rule that can be added to the Basic Set approach to grappling.

I myself have used quite a bit of grappling in my time and I must say, unlike thing such as the slam rules (which indeed produce headaches on table and away from it), grappling did seem very workable to me, I rarely encountered any problem aside maybe from extreme cases only ever popping up in theory (human grappling dinosaur and imposing a dex penalty at all, regular contest pins being highly dependent on when you apply the "mutual reduction" of strength and such).
Anyone else interested in this idea? I see Yako is offline for quite some while, and it takes at least two people to discuss an idea . . .
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