New Reality Seeds

[tshiggins]

Also, Machiavelli must be understood in the context of his times. While many members of the ruling elite did have some skepticism about the details of the Bible and the edicts of the church, the overall mythology and cosmogony were accepted as basically factual. That means God was real, the Devil was real, and Heaven and Hell actually existed.

That means Hell was just as real to the people -- including the princes -- of Machiavelli's day as Cleveland is to us. It's a seriously nasty, unpleasant place that nobody wants to wind up in, but it's a place one can easily reach as a consequence of bad choices.

Despite that, Machiavelli advocates ruthless, even brutal, actions so long as the outcome creates a safer, better world for the subjects of the prince. So, in effect, Machiavelli indicated that a prince must be willing to do things that would damn his soul to Hell for all eternity, if that's what it takes to make his people safe and improve their quality of life, substantially.

[robkelk]

I've got a divergence, but don't know what to do with it...

The Avro Canada VZ-9-AV "Avrocar" was a real-world flying saucer developed in the 1950s and 1960s. Intended to have a flight ceiling of 10,000 feet, it never got more than 3 feet off the ground.

What if it worked?

We're looking at a parallel with slightly different physical laws (in OTL, the Avrocar was horridly unstable in "flight"), which could put this timeline on Quantum 3... which leads to the old "Nazis with flying saucers" meme if Reich-5 troops find their way there. Because of the way they fly, they're not capable of vacuum flight, so we don't get the "Space Nazis with flying saucers" meme.

And... then what?

[PTTG]

Originally Posted by robkelk

I've got a divergence, but don't know what to do with it...

The Avro Canada VZ-9-AV "Avrocar" was a real-world flying saucer developed in the 1950s and 1960s. Intended to have a flight ceiling of 10,000 feet, it never got more than 3 feet off the ground.

What if it worked?

We're looking at a parallel with slightly different physical laws (in OTL, the Avrocar was horridly unstable in "flight"), which could put this timeline on Quantum 3... which leads to the old "Nazis with flying saucers" meme if Reich-5 troops find their way there. Because of the way they fly, they're not capable of vacuum flight, so we don't get the "Space Nazis with flying saucers" meme.

And... then what?

I might build it up as "the secret of American victory in the Third World War," and suggest that it's somehow a very powerful tool. The Nazis want to steal it, and Infinity wants to prevent that while still controlling the secret.

In the end, it turns out that it did help the USA win, because it was a major propaganda victory. The researchers determined that it would never be practical, but leaked notes about it and hinted that it was a key part of their war effort, resulting in the other side wasting a great deal of resources on trying to counter it. The few times that they were apparently used in combat, the "avrocars" that enemy scouts saw were actually balloons used in concert with infiltrators.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by tshiggins

Also, Machiavelli must be understood in the context of his times. While many members of the ruling elite did have some skepticism about the details of the Bible and the edicts of the church, the overall mythology and cosmogony were accepted as basically factual. That means God was real, the Devil was real, and Heaven and Hell actually existed.

That means Hell was just as real to the people -- including the princes -- of Machiavelli's day as Cleveland is to us. It's a seriously nasty, unpleasant place that nobody wants to wind up in, but it's a place one can easily reach as a consequence of bad choices.

Despite that, Machiavelli advocates ruthless, even brutal, actions so long as the outcome creates a safer, better world for the subjects of the prince. So, in effect, Machiavelli indicated that a prince must be willing to do things that would damn his soul to Hell for all eternity, if that's what it takes to make his people safe and improve their quality of life, substantially.

Actually, the book I read clears away many of your misconceptions. Because Machiavelli showed that the People were more important to the State that the Elites, by demonstrating to his satisfaction, that the People always showed better judgment that the elites if the facts were fully, clearly, and truthfully, explained to them, Machiavelli is demonized by the elites.

[Astromancer]

I think Naseby is an underused divergence point. Charles I nearly rode to death or capture there. Only one man stopped him. A whole raft of worlds could be developed out of Charles either getting captured or killed at Naseby.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

I think Naseby is an underused divergence point. Charles I nearly rode to death or capture there. Only one man stopped him. A whole raft of worlds could be developed out of Charles either getting captured or killed at Naseby.

If he had gotten captured he would have been as much a bother as he was later, surely. If he got killed, I suppose that would have ended up with a Charles II as a real Royalist leader rather then as a "We're tired of Cromwells and little Dicky ain't tough enough to get daddy's job" guy.

[scc]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Actually, the book I read clears away many of your misconceptions. Because Machiavelli showed that the People were more important to the State that the Elites, by demonstrating to his satisfaction, that the People always showed better judgment that the elites if the facts were fully, clearly, and truthfully, explained to them, Machiavelli is demonized by the elites.

In other words: Democracy works if the people are well-educated and well-informed? (I suspect that an only should be the second word) Well that explains a few things.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

If he had gotten captured he would have been as much a bother as he was later, surely. If he got killed, I suppose that would have ended up with a Charles II as a real Royalist leader rather then as a "We're tired of Cromwells and little Dicky ain't tough enough to get daddy's job" guy.

Think on this option, C1 dies at Nasby, C2 is forced to lead the fight and gets killed as well. The Interregnum runs out in much the same way. Now, 1660 is rolling around, and there are those who want the King back, but Jamie is an unattractive choice.

Meanwhile the Cabal has discovered that this Earth could be either an Azoth or a Merlin world. Needing extra confusion to pull off certain stunts, the vile MIDWINTER ATON!!!(hated outcastes of the Cabal) have suckered both Homeline and Centrum into what they think is just an ordinary Q6 parallel. Neither want a highly magical Q6 world with Magitech.

So you've got a fight between Royalists and Roundheads, each with European allies, plus a three way fight between the Cabal, Homeline, and Centrum, and, in the background, MIDWINTER ATON ploting to sacrafise an either parallel for some monstrous goal of their own.

Tasty?

[Astromancer]

An old film popped into my mind Gabriel Over the White House a creepy film, but it suggests an idea. What if an otherworldly being got the Presidency.

Take your recent US president of choice. Have his Veep get ill and resign. A Mysterious Unknown gets picked for the replacement. Then the President develops a strange form of narcolepsy and has to resign or is simply declared unfit.

The Mysterious Unknown could be an Angel, the type varying from Dudley to this Gabriel. Fay, Aliens, Demons, Sorcerers, are also possibilities. Heck a Supervillain from another world where Supers are real fits too. Any of these could be played for good or evil or simply insane.

Picture the Doctor taking over the USA because the Master has taken over Russia, the Rani is running the EU, and the Celestial Toymaker has taken over China. The Doctor wants to prevent the extinction of Humanity, the Master and the Rani want to get power, and the Toymaker just wants to play.

If Arthur has returned to England and Morgan Le Fay has taken over the Presidency?

A major supervillain is tired of losing all those fights. So he decamps to a supers free world to prove to himself he can do something right.

It can be spun a thousand ways.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Take your recent US president of choice. Have his Veep get ill and resign. A Mysterious Unknown gets picked for the replacement. Then the President develops a strange form of narcolepsy and has to resign or is simply declared unfit.

The biggest hurdle here I think is that there are lots of politicians who are not complete unknowns who would like the job of VP, and there are citizenship qualifications that people will check up on, especially in these days of birther conspiracy theories. The ability to construct a good enough cover to withstand the scrutiny of the free press and who knows how many intelligence services, and somehow manipulate the politics to beat out all those other guys, implies some pretty impressive capabilities.

It might be simpler to get straight up win the next election than to manipulate the process enough to fill the VP slot, though you'll still need the airtight false background.