GURPS Powers: The Weird

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

This is part of the Mutation power, I don't think you're a normal human any more.

Sure, you're not a normal human anymore; but you're not a bush robot either. In particular, the Mutation power doesn't assume that you have a racial template; and as such, it assumes that the only thing that sets you apart from a normal human is whatever Mutation Abilities you have. If a normal human's HMD is capped at +3 and a Mutation Ability grants you +10, then whatever the surcharge is for breaking the +3 cap on HMD needs to be built into that Ability.

At least, so goes the reasoning. Personally, I can't help feeling that we're getting back into GURPS 3e's “different costs for high traits, depending on how you buy them”, instead of “it costs what it costs”.

This is why I want Template Toolkit 2 soon.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

At least, so goes the reasoning. Personally, I can't help feeling that we're getting back into GURPS 3e's “different costs for high traits, depending on how you buy them”, instead of “it costs what it costs”.

This is why I want Template Toolkit 2 soon.

The difference in 4E though is that the exceptions are tacked on rather then buried in the ability.
Whether its an Unusual Background, Special Exercises perk or Cosmic enhancement it can easily be added or removed based on setting and individual campaign.

[dataweaver]

True enough. But on the other hand, that adds more fiddly bits to keep track of.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Refplace

The difference in 4E though is that the exceptions are tacked on rather then buried in the ability.
Whether its an Unusual Background, Special Exercises perk or Cosmic enhancement it can easily be added or removed based on setting and individual campaign.

Why do you need to pay for an enhancement to buy one trait a normal human can't buy: High Manual Dexterity 5+, but not for another trait a normal human can't buy: Diffuse?

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Sure, you're not a normal human anymore; but you're not a bush robot either. In particular, the Mutation power doesn't assume that you have a racial template; and as such, it assumes that the only thing that sets you apart from a normal human is whatever Mutation Abilities you have. If a normal human's HMD is capped at +3 and a Mutation Ability grants you +10, then whatever the surcharge is for breaking the +3 cap on HMD needs to be built into that Ability.

A normal Human is capped at no Diffuse, why don't they have to pay extra for buying Diffuse?

[dataweaver]

Who says they don't? The thing is, Exotic and Supernatural Advantages are either unleveled or, if they have levels, even the first level is out of bounds for normal humans. So for all we know, a third of the cost of Diffuse is a “normal humans can't take this, but you can” surcharge.

And then there are Unusual Backgrounds, which are explicitly “you get to buy traits that the campaign's everyman can't”.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Who says they don't?

The costs given in the book we are discussing that is the title of this thread.

Originally Posted by dataweaver

The thing is, Exotic and Supernatural Advantages are either unleveled or, if they have levels, even the first level is out of bounds for normal humans. So for all we know, a third of the cost of Diffuse is a “normal humans can't take this, but you can” surcharge.

Which leads to this:

Bush Robots can buy High Manual Dexterity 10 cheaper because it is part of their racial template.

Humans pay more for High Manual Dexterity 10 because it is not part of their racial template.

Humans can buy diffuse, with an implied built in extra cost because it is not part of their racial template.

Nanoswarms have diffuse as part of their racial template, therefore they shouldn't have to pay the implied built in extra cost.

What is the the implied built in cost of diffuse that beings for which it is part of their racial template doesn't have to pay?

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

The costs given in the book we are discussing that is the title of this thread.


Which leads to this:

Bush Robots can buy High Manual Dexterity 10 cheaper because it is part of their racial template.

Humans pay more for High Manual Dexterity 10 because it is not part of their racial template.

Humans can buy diffuse, with an implied built in extra cost because it is not part of their racial template.

Nanoswarms have diffuse as part of their racial template, therefore they shouldn't have to pay the implied built in extra cost.

What is the the implied built in cost of diffuse that beings for which it is part of their racial template doesn't have to pay?

Diffuse is normally off limits and would be covered by GM fiat or a UB cost.
HMD is available but capped. So you could uncap it by GM Fiat, a UB or Special Exercises perk, or Cosmic Rules Exception.
Since its a stat block for an Ability Bill chose the latter.
We can easily choose to use it or not and refigure the cost if needed for a particular setting.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by PK

I've endorsed the use of Cosmic in the past to (A) exceed campaign limits on a leveled advantage and (B) allow an advantage to stack with existing copies of itself, where it normally wouldn't because it isn't leveled. You're effectively paying a "tax" on the ability to break the system's or campaign's limits. And note that those limits do vary from race to race! A racial template is its own Unusual Background or prerequisite for whatever traits it includes (like the Bush Robot having HMD 10); the existence of said template doesn't mean that other characters can freely buy traits that are exotic, over-leveled, etc. (In other words, just because a "bush robot" racial template exists doesn't mean your normal human PC can buy Digital Mind, Flight, or HMD 5+.)

So this ability is priced assuming that (A) a normal human being is buying it and (B) the GM is respecting the limit on HMD listed in the Basic Set. If those assumptions aren't correct, just delete Cosmic. After all, one of the reasons The Weird breaks out the statistics is so you can easily rework it to fit your own game.

Why don't high levels of Denser Molecular Structure require Cosmic, Exceeds normal limits, +50%? ST +5 might be within the normal human range, but ST +15, ST +25 and ST+40 certainly aren't.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Diffuse is normally off limits and would be covered by GM fiat or a UB cost.
HMD is available but capped. So you could uncap it by GM Fiat, a UB or Special Exercises perk, or Cosmic Rules Exception.
Since its a stat block for an Ability Bill chose the latter.
We can easily choose to use it or not and refigure the cost if needed for a particular setting.

Then why don't high levels of Denser Molecular Structure require Cosmic, Exceeds normal limits, +50%? ST +5 might be within the normal human range, but ST +15, ST +25 and ST+40 certainly aren't.