Left 4 Dead Zombies

[Sam Baughn]

Giving them Berserk and Hard to Subdue should keep them going even after having a few holes in them.

[Kromm]

Unless you're a bad shot, one hit to the head or two to the torso with nearly any weapon in the game will drop a common infected for good – in GURPS terms, taking it from full HP to -HP, where Fragile (Unnatural) kicks in. Most second-tier weapons can drop commons in a single shot (e.g., military sniper rifle anywhere, full automatic shotgun blast to center of mass). I've played hundreds of hours of these games in all difficulty levels, using all the weapons . . . I've never seen a zombie take three, four, or more hits except from somebody who had bad aim and wasn't actually hitting at all, or who was using a shotgun and aiming half the blast off-target.

Compare the survivors, who at any difficulty but Expert can sustain several direct hits from any weapon, even two contact explosions from an M79, and not fall down. In Expert, they're as vulnerable as commons but not more vulnerable.

I don't really think commons need to be super-tough. The special infected are notably tough – especially the charger, witch, and (particularly!) tank.

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Kromm

My wife and I both play, so I hear you. :) Feel free to add me on Steam, if you want. The profile pages I linked should let you do that.

Originally Posted by tg_ambro

I played L4D with my siblings, and it was such a blast! Sadly, my video card died, leaving me unable to play L4D2. Happily, this weekend I'm recieving a new one!

On a related note, perhaps a GURPS Steam group should be created, if one doesn't exist already. Hope it won't be seen as rude to "friend" you on steam as well Kromm, and I'd like to "friend" you as well Nymdok, so pony up the info :-)

Id love to add you both! Sadly, Im a lowly Xbox 360 player so I dont think I have the PC in. :(

Nymdok

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

Giving them Berserk and Hard to Subdue should keep them going even after having a few holes in them.

Im not really looking to keep common infected up for too long, I actually WANT them to die en masse. Thematically, it lets the players feel like they are doing well, and the sheer number of zombies keeps that feeling in check.

As a reference, the common zombies have a basic move of 5-7 so far which gives each of my players 2 pretty good chances at headshots wiht their current skills.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.php?p=855076&postcount=3

Berserk and HTK/HTS for the Tank and Witch seem like fine ideas though!

Nymdok

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Ubiquitous

Uh, one thing I'm noticing? A lot of factors being mentioned seem to be game-wise balances for L4D, and not really apt for putting into GURPS.

True, but it helps to translate the 'feel' of L4D, especially if there are others running games that are inspired by that game that read this thread later.

Mechanics and GURPS considerations are my first concern, but for posterity and the love of Zombie killing, I dont have a problem with those other factors being listed here.

Nymdok

[Ubiquitous]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Unless you're a bad shot, one hit to the head or two to the torso with nearly any weapon in the game will drop a common infected for good – in GURPS terms, taking it from full HP to -HP, where Fragile (Unnatural) kicks in. Most second-tier weapons can drop commons in a single shot (e.g., military sniper rifle anywhere, full automatic shotgun blast to center of mass). I've played hundreds of hours of these games in all difficulty levels, using all the weapons . . . I've never seen a zombie take three, four, or more hits except from somebody who had bad aim and wasn't actually hitting at all, or who was using a shotgun and aiming half the blast off-target.

Compare the survivors, who at any difficulty but Expert can sustain several direct hits from any weapon, even two contact explosions from an M79, and not fall down. In Expert, they're as vulnerable as commons but not more vulnerable.

I don't really think commons need to be super-tough. The special infected are notably tough – especially the charger, witch, and (particularly!) tank.

Oh I'm not saying that well-placed shots aren't a factor, I'm just saying getting their chest blown out and them not really noticing is a possibility.

As for how tough the Survivors are, that's what I mean when I say 'game-balance' issues; in addition to the kind of hilarious amount of punishment they can soak, Survivors can have cars literally dropped on them and only be 'knocked down'. Also, the two can't really be compared because of that; Infected die for reals when they're shot, but Survivors get two mulligans unless it was a fall-related death.

EDIT: I noticed you mentioned Charger; just a suggestion for it, if you add it; would Super-Effort be enough to logicize the limited-but-real-fast running time? I'm not familiar with the rule, but from what I've heard it works for spurts of intense exertion.

Also, about the shotgun-to-the-center-of-mass thing; I think GURPS includes the gut as part of the torso, which was what I meant, but otherwise yeah, I think you're right, the shotgun does kill one-hit to the center of mass.

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Unless you're a bad shot, one hit to the head or two to the torso with nearly any weapon in the game will drop a common infected for good – in GURPS terms, taking it from full HP to -HP, where Fragile (Unnatural) kicks in. Most second-tier weapons can drop commons in a single shot (e.g., military sniper rifle anywhere, full automatic shotgun blast to center of mass). I've played hundreds of hours of these games in all difficulty levels, using all the weapons . . . I've never seen a zombie take three, four, or more hits except from somebody who had bad aim and wasn't actually hitting at all, or who was using a shotgun and aiming half the blast off-target.
....
I don't really think commons need to be super-tough. The special infected are notably tough – especially the charger, witch, and (particularly!) tank.

For the Common Infected toughness, Im running with the Unliving/Has a brain. This encourages tactical shot placement in my players when they have time or are reduced to pistols, but still allows them to 'go for giblets' when rocking and rolling an assault rifle. Note of course that the Ballistic Cuisinart defense has the Down side of leaving infected that will crawl towards you with grim, moaning resolve.


Nymdok

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Nymdok

Im not really looking to keep common infected up for too long, I actually WANT them to die en masse.

And they do. When a horde is rushing across open ground, I can take down the whole lot by myself using a single magazine from either scoped rifle. They charge at me, I kneel, aim down their lines from left to right, and the overpenetration gives me one-hit multi-kills down each line. I sometimes have to switch off to a pistol or a melee weapon to pick off the stragglers who get through. I'm only a so-so shot; my pals who play Expert can do this more easily.

I think a good rule would be for commons to have HP equal to about 1/5 the damage from a single 7.62mm round, or maybe 5 HP. That would explain how 7d could roll about 25 damage, take the first 5 HP down to -5, pass through with 20 damage left, and so on. It fits with my success rate against lines of commons. It also means you'll need about three pellets to hit from a shotgun, which is why you might require two blasts if you don't "roll well" (read: don't hit center of mass).

If 5 HP comes with ST 5, you have a good explanation for why ST 9-looking Rochelle or Zoey can shove four of them away at once. :P It also explains why even on Expert, it takes five hits to knock you down and several times as many to truly kill you, even with the zombies doing All-Out Attack (Strong) all the time. On Advanced it takes 20, and on Normal it takes 50! The horde's purpose isn't to kill you, but to hide special infected and force you to waste ammo, get out of position, have your gun unloaded, etc. when the specials attack.

[Ubiquitous]

Originally Posted by Nymdok

...of leaving infected that will crawl towards you with grim, moaning resolve.


Nymdok

C-C-C-CURB STOMP.

Also, you might consider giving them lots of FP, because they don't seem to stop sprinting until it or something else dies. That, and a lot of strenuous effort like hauling themselves up by their arms up three stories.

EDIT: Hey Kromm, we could play a game of L4D2 together, compare ballistics analysis, what's say?

Also whoa, sorry, didn't see you post.

[Professor Phobos]

My advice would be to ignore some of the gameplay artifice required by the game and go for the in-setting logic. Survivors aren't actually bulletproof, for instance- it's just that realistic gunshot wounds would make the game nigh-impossible to complete.

The big question is whether or not you're going to use "Realism Mode"/L4D2 as the baseline or not. In that case, common infected are a lot tougher and can clearly withstand tremendous amounts of pain (I mean I've shot open their stomachs and they still chase me with their entrails hanging out), requiring a headshot (or, oddly, the magnum) to drop quickly.

How to model that in GURPS, I have no idea- the resistance to body shots in Realism Mode doesn't necessarily reflect any kind of superhuman toughness outside of resistance to pain/shock, just that in the game the infected eventually bleeding to death isn't really a consideration.