Harmonizing Obscure, Chameleon, Invisibility, Silence

[Bruno]

Point the first: Chameleon and Silence stink because they're over-expensive ways to buy more levels of Stealth. Removing the limitations on movement and on wearing clothing with Dynamic and Force Field results in both costing 8 points per +2 - which is comparable to Stealth skill until you realize it's only against one sense each. It's flat out better to just by Stealth, which works against Hearing, Vision, Smell, Sonar, and whatever.

Point the second: Obscure 10 (Defensive, Selective Area, Stealthy) [58] and Invisibility (Can Cary Objects: Heavy, Switchable) [84] are annoyingly similar for wacky price gaps (The Obscure is better and cheaper!).

Point the third: Invisibility being Always On by default is just weird.

Thesis:

• Invisibility should be removed
• Chameleon and Silence should become worked examples of Defensive, Stealthy Obscure.
• Obscure becomes "single target" (you, by default). If you want an Area Effect, buy it. Area Effect is required to buy Ranged.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Point the first: Chameleon and Silence stink because they're over-expensive ways to buy more levels of Stealth. Removing the limitations on movement and on wearing clothing with Dynamic and Force Field results in both costing 8 points per +2 - which is comparable to Stealth skill until you realize it's only against one sense each. It's flat out better to just by Stealth, which works against Hearing, Vision, Smell, Sonar, and whatever.

Point the second: Obscure 10 (Defensive, Selective Area, Stealthy) [58] and Invisibility (Can Cary Objects: Heavy, Switchable) [84] are annoyingly similar for wacky price gaps (The Obscure is better and cheaper!).

Point the third: Invisibility being Always On by default is just weird.

Thesis:

• Invisibility should be removed
• Chameleon and Silence should become worked examples of Defensive, Stealthy Obscure.
• Obscure becomes "single target" (you, by default). If you want an Area Effect, buy it. Area Effect is required to buy Ranged.

Yeah, this should go down in the notes for 5th edition. (If there ever is one...)

[McAllister]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Point the first: Chameleon and Silence stink because they're over-expensive ways to buy more levels of Stealth. Removing the limitations on movement and on wearing clothing with Dynamic and Force Field results in both costing 8 points per +2 - which is comparable to Stealth skill until you realize it's only against one sense each. It's flat out better to just by Stealth, which works against Hearing, Vision, Smell, Sonar, and whatever.

Point the second: Obscure 10 (Defensive, Selective Area, Stealthy) [58] and Invisibility (Can Cary Objects: Heavy, Switchable) [84] are annoyingly similar for wacky price gaps (The Obscure is better and cheaper!).

Point the third: Invisibility being Always On by default is just weird.

Thesis:

• Invisibility should be removed
• Chameleon and Silence should become worked examples of Defensive, Stealthy Obscure.
• Obscure becomes "single target" (you, by default). If you want an Area Effect, buy it. Area Effect is required to buy Ranged.

I agree generally! Well-observed. My only question is, why can't Obscure get Ranged without Area Effect? Why can't I turn discrete things invisible?

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Thesis:

• Invisibility should be removed
• Chameleon and Silence should become worked examples of Defensive, Stealthy Obscure.
• Obscure becomes "single target" (you, by default). If you want an Area Effect, buy it. Area Effect is required to buy Ranged.

Agreed, on all three points. I feel Obscure should probably be Single Target, Defensive, and Stealthy by default, with Enhancements/Limitations to change that. I also feel Vision should be the most expensive, but other senses less so - I've previously suggested [2]/level for Vision, [1.5]/level for Hearing, and [1]/level for Taste/Smell or Touch.

All that in mind, and wanting removal of Single Target to be +50% (Area Effect), Obscure (Vision) would be [4]/level, Obscure (Hearing) would be [3]/level, and Obscure (Taste/Smell) or Obscure (Touch) would be [2]/level. Affects Self (you are also penalized while it's in use) and Obvious (smokescreen, white noise, etc) are each -30%.
EDIT: It occurs to me I mistakenly thought Defensive was +100%, not +50%. With that in mind, I'd probably still keep the prices as they are, but maybe have Affects Self at -20% and Obvious at -40%.

For recreating Chameleon, a "Not While Moving" Limitation would be appropriate (apply this to half the levels of Obscure). -50%, perhaps?

Originally Posted by McAllister

My only question is, why can't Obscure get Ranged without Area Effect? Why can't I turn discrete things invisible?

That would be Affliction (Obscure). Affliction's kind of its own can of worms, but that would probably be the way to do it. Alternatively, I'd be willing to allow for Ranged with Independent (not technically RAW, but sounds about right), although that only lets you Obscure one thing at a time. Another option would be to allow Ranged to work fine on stationary objects, but require Teamwork or similar to work on moving ones.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Alternatively, I'd be willing to allow for Ranged with Independent

If not Affliction, you'd use Affects Others. Ranged could eliminate the requirement to touch one additional subject. Area Effect lets you do a bunch of subjects at once, instead of the one Ready each that's required with the base Affects Others, and means that they don't have to continue to touch you to keep the effect.

You need Affliction for unwilling subjects. That might well include inanimate objects. Off the top of my head, I don't recall whether there's a rule explicitly putting objects into the "unwilling" category.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I also feel Vision should be the most expensive, but other senses less so - I've previously suggested [2]/level for Vision, [1.5]/level for Hearing, and [1]/level for Taste/Smell or Touch.

.

If implementing this go to Powers: Enhanced Senses first and make Discriminatory senses (Vision is Discriminatory by Default) most expensiveand price downward from there.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

If implementing this go to Powers: Enhanced Senses first and make Discriminatory senses (Vision is Discriminatory by Default) most expensiveand price downward from there.

Smell/Taste is Nondirectional (-30%), Touch is Contact (-30%), Hearing is Basic (+0%), Vision is Precise (+100%). That implies [0.7], [0.7], [1], and [2], respectively, or [1.5], [1.5], [2], and [4] under the new pricing scheme. I'd probably go with what I originally suggested and consider the boosts in price to the non-Precise senses as being to account for the fact that some foes will have better senses than a human.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Point the first: Chameleon and Silence stink because they're over-expensive ways to buy more levels of Stealth. Removing the limitations on movement and on wearing clothing with Dynamic and Force Field results in both costing 8 points per +2 - which is comparable to Stealth skill until you realize it's only against one sense each.

You're probably right that they're overpriced compared to Stealth skill. However, for Chameleon, at least, one thing I've always assumed it includes is that if you have it, you can always try to use Stealth - it's your own little mobile bit of cover/shadows, basically. Whereas if you don't have it, the GM can say "sorry, you're in a featureless flat plain with no cover, Stealth just isn't possible at all". And note that, per Kromm, someone camouflaged never counts as "in plain sight" - I'd definitely extend that to anyone getting a bonus from Chameleon, which eliminates a big +10 bonus to spot you. I think those bonuses do need to be taken into account when dealing with the price of Chameleon, Obscure, and similar vision-affecting abilities.

Arguably, that benefit is big enough that the first level of whatever vision-affecting power you have should be bigger - something like 5 points for the first level of Obscure (Vision) perhaps?

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Arguably, that benefit is big enough that the first level of whatever vision-affecting power you have should be bigger - something like 5 points for the first level of Obscure (Vision) perhaps?

The whole response is pretty much why I had not replied yet.
I allow things with powers that hide you I would not with pure Stealth or Camouflage.
The rest still thinking on.
Obscure is like darkness or cover and for most ideas I like Brunos post.
However If you eliminate Invisibility what do you do with See Invisible? Just call it a feature of Obscure that can counter it?

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Arguably, that benefit is big enough that the first level of whatever vision-affecting power you have should be bigger - something like 5 points for the first level of Obscure (Vision) perhaps?

The issue here is the binary nature of In Plain Sight. If instead each -1 from camouflage, Obscure, etc also negated +1 of the In Plain Sight bonus, there wouldn't really be an issue.

Originally Posted by Refplace

However If you eliminate Invisibility what do you do with See Invisible? Just call it a feature of Obscure that can counter it?

See Invisible is replaced by a trait that lets you see/hear/smell/etc through a specific type of obscure. Because there are more types of Obscure than sources of Invisibility, a reduction in price may be appropriate (and it should be scaled based on how good the sense you're using it with is). [10] for Precise/Discriminatory (Sight), [5] for Basic (Hearing), [3] for Short Range (Smell) or Contact (Touch), and so forth. This also applies against natural sources of the obscure effect (darkness, smoke, etc), but to get through total sensory negation requires a +200% modifier. Optionally, you can even break this up into levels - consider Night Vision and Dark Vision as worked examples of the "See Invisible" equivalent against darkness.