The Problem With Magic

[Kax]

Most Supers, even the really intelligent ones, work better with IQ 15-16 and Appropriate Talent 4 (the broadest and most expensive form) and a matching Wildcard skill. If the GM doesn't want to combine Wildcards with Talents, quite reasonably, you could have IQ 15-16 (or even lower) with IQ (<specific realm of skill only>) +4.

But being able to ignore TL and familiarity penalties with Wildcards is hugely powerful for inventors.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I do not think Weird Science works like that. It only gives a +1 to concept and prototype rolls when combined with Gadgeteer. It still suffers the normal Complexity and TL penalties for inventions (^ only applies to superscience, not divergent technology). The original Star Trek was TL (7+5)^ by the way, not TL 7^.

Star Trek cannot be TL (7+5)^ because a TL6 culture can duplicate the technology in a few decades from just one component per Worlds of Star Trek.

For the Iotians, at TL6, to have any chance at duplicating Federation Technology the highest TL the Federation can be is TL(7+2)^ Remember that a TL that is 4 or higher then your own is impossible to understand much less duplicate. (B168) This limits the upper range of what Star Trek's TL can be.

See GURPS Prime Directive on the GURPS wiki for a detailed reasoning as to why Star Trek at best is TL(6+3) to TL(6+4) under 3e GURPS TL and TL(7+2)^ (transtator TL6^; Medicine: TL7^) under 4e TL.

Superscience like Magic totally screws up the GURPS TL scale. Not to mention that GURPS Fantasy introduced the concept of Equivalent TL where magic (or superscience) makes the TL look higher then it actually is.

For example, take Etheria where limited manned interplanetary exists. This is normally TL9 but the world is actual TL(5+1)^ (etheric spacecraft, TL5^) or 3 to 4 TLs below what would be "normal". D&D Starjammer has an even greater disconnect between Equivalent TL (3+6) and actual TL (3^ to 4^).

Azoth-7 has what amounts to fast interstellar travel, normally a TL12, and they are TL4^! Cyrano also has space travel TL4^ while TL(5+4) elsewhere.

Britannica-5's antimatter is not TL10 but TL5^

Futura is TL(5+1)^ despite having manned interplanetary possibly interstellar travel. It is a very Dieselpunk world: "Ayn Rand on crystal meth or Jack London on crack. It's Tim Burton's Speed Racer, it's Fritz Lang's Star Wars".

[maximara]

When you have magic (especially common magic) the TL of the setting can get messed up real fast. Throw in superscience and any effort at figuring out the general TL goes into the dumpster.

The best known poster child of this is Azeroth of World of Warcraft. Just what is the TL?

Castles are TL3 in design, TL4-5 gunpowder weapons are all over the place, Dwarves can build TL5-6 tanks, and there the Gnomes and Goblins whose TL6-7 inventions are just as likely to blow up in your face as work as intended.

So what is the base TL? TL4^, TL(4+1)^, or something else? Reasonable arguments for any TL in the 3-7 range abound.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Your new beggar class is composed of people who cannot* take this job (and of course the standard stable of beggars who simply refuse to work).
* Magic Resistance is the new Disad... also just anyone who is very poor of health.

That plus the people who are physically or mentally incapable of holding a candle, chanting, or whatever is needed for participants in a ritual to donate mana. Depending on the setting, Absent-Minded, Chronic Pain, serious Delusions, Disturbing Voice, Ham-Fisted, Klutz, Lame, Odious Personal Habits, or serious Phantom Voices might all qualify. And never mind supernatural disadvantages like Cursed or Unluckiness!

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by maximara

When you have magic (especially common magic) the TL of the setting can get messed up real fast. Throw in superscience and any effort at figuring out the general TL goes into the dumpster.

In that case, you need to ignore the way the setting looks, figure out how effective the technology is, and how effective the magic is against the TL. Figure out "base TL" from there.

If the most effective siege weapon is about as mobile as a trebuchet and has about the same RoF and dice of damage, it's effectively TL3, even if it looks like some weird late 19th or early 20th century gadget.

Likewise, if the most dangerous missile spell in the game has approximately the same range, and damage dice vs. RoF as a longbow, and takes about as long to master, it's effectively TL2 even if it requires a supercomputer to cast it.

Magic spells typically get priced according to their game effects. Normally, events like finding food or water are "background events," with little effect on the game action, so there's the impulse to make such spells cheap to cast and easy to learn. Likewise, because combat is a big part of most games, there's the impulse to "nerf" combat spells by making them much more expensive and hard to learn so that mages don't dominate the game. Never mind the realistic effects on the world!

TL7 magic should have the ability, if you get enough people together, and spend enough time, money, and energy, to pack as much destructive power as a thermonuclear device, or send hundreds of pounds of mass into lunar orbit. On a smaller scale, a "typical" magic attack spell ought to rival an assault rifle in range and lethality.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

In that case, you need to ignore the way the setting looks, figure out how effective the technology is, and how effective the magic is against the TL. Figure out "base TL" from there.

If the most effective siege weapon is about as mobile as a trebuchet and has about the same RoF and dice of damage, it's effectively TL3, even if it looks like some weird late 19th or early 20th century gadget.

Likewise, if the most dangerous missile spell in the game has approximately the same range, and damage dice vs. RoF as a longbow, and takes about as long to master, it's effectively TL2 even if it requires a supercomputer to cast it.

Magic spells typically get priced according to their game effects. Normally, events like finding food or water are "background events," with little effect on the game action, so there's the impulse to make such spells cheap to cast and easy to learn. Likewise, because combat is a big part of most games, there's the impulse to "nerf" combat spells by making them much more expensive and hard to learn so that mages don't dominate the game. Never mind the realistic effects on the world!

TL7 magic should have the ability, if you get enough people together, and spend enough time, money, and energy, to pack as much destructive power as a thermonuclear device, or send hundreds of pounds of mass into lunar orbit. On a smaller scale, a "typical" magic attack spell ought to rival an assault rifle in range and lethality.

This is pretty much spot on. You just have to find out what the TL actually is. And yes, its valid to say its higher in some places than in others. Fictional setting often are. I usually look at

• weapons and armor
• transportation and communication
• medicine
• Survival Gear
• Spy Gear
• Economic Robustness

I've got a blog post on the subject, and a list of TL benchmarks for each category.



I struggle the most with magic when its concentrated in the hands of a few people who don't have the numbers to really change the standard of living for the common man.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

In that case, you need to ignore the way the setting looks, figure out how effective the technology is, and how effective the magic is against the TL. Figure out "base TL" from there.

As I pointed out when you run into something like Azeroth of World of Warcraft this totally falls apart.

Guns are TL4-5 and yet TL3-4 armor is viable. Dwarves can build TL5-6 tanks and yet TL3 castles are still viable. Goblins and Gnomes create TL6, 7 and ^ devices like there is no tomorrow and yet their impact on the world is in the 'Reed Richard is Useless' category.

[AlexanderHowl]

WoW does not make sense under the best of circumstances, as the goblins and gnomes should be running everything. Of course, I do not terribly like 'magic as technology' most of the time, as I think that it destroys the mystery of everything. I much prefer the idea of magic like in the Mythos, where it transforms the caster into something other than human through obsession, corruption, and/or ascension.

[scc]

OK, I've realized why there might not be as many magic items floating around a setting as you'd think.

First working on Slow and Sure enchantments is a pretty sucky job, while working on a project you don't get any time off. Yea, not something you'd want. So Slow and Sure is unlikely to be economically viable, although applying Magery and Effect to how much a Mage can contribute per day does help.

So what about Quick and Dirty can do better but it's a logistical nightmare to create something significant this way, so society may simply not use it unless it's really needed.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

WoW does not make sense under the best of circumstances, as the goblins and gnomes should be running everything. Of course, I do not terribly like 'magic as technology' most of the time, as I think that it destroys the mystery of everything. I much prefer the idea of magic like in the Mythos, where it transforms the caster into something other than human through obsession, corruption, and/or ascension.

That is High Fantasy. Its main features are

* Magic is generally distributed unevenly concentrated in gods, other mythic beings, or in a handful of artifacts.
* It tends to be unpredictable even with people who use it regularly.
* It tends to be rare. In some settings it can be so rare that many may not even believe magic even exists.

By contrast WoW and many RPG fantasy settings are Low Fantasy where magic is just another tool that can be used.