A different take on priests

[Skarg]

Is this meant to be balanced for use with IQ + ((ST + DX) / 2) talent points? (Because that makes a massive difference (your example character Squatka would only have 1 talent point after the priest-4 talents, if limited to IQ).)

Also, are you thinking of the ITL EP progression, or SJ's new EP progression and 40-point limit, because that makes a big difference, too.

[JLV]

Hmm. I think this should be playtested either under "classic" rules that we all understand, or under the "new" rules (insofar as we know them) in order to be meaningful to the group here. The house rules you are using are not clear to all of us, nor would many of us care to use them.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by zot

Squatka (36 points, 24 talent points from IQ + (ST + DX) / 2)
ST 8
DX 15 (18)
IQ 13
MA 12

First Aid (1)
Physicker (1)
Master Physicker (2)
Priest 1 (2)
Priest 2 (2)
Priest 3 (2)
Priest 4 (2)
Charisma (1)
Courtly Graces (1)
Missile Weapons (3)
Thrown Weapons (2)
Horsemanship (1)
Tactics (1)
Running (2)

Talisman melee: 2, ranged: 2 or 1+2 twice per turn

Elven chain: 3 hits -0 DX, -0 MA

Various ceremonies (I didn't feel like typing in 20 ceremony names)

* This example needs IQ 14 for Master Phyisicker and the asjusted Priest 4.

* The talisman can be used for ranged attacks at either 1d+2 (2 shots per turn since adjDX 18) or 2d (1 shot per turn) and gets a 2d+2 melee attack with the same talisman (according to your linked write-up, contrary to the stats listed here which say 2d), which means he doesn't have to unready a bow/crossbow to fight someone up close, and it also doesn't say whether he could add a shield or not. SO, let's compare to a warrior trying to do that:

ST 12
DX 15 (18 missile)
IQ 9
MA 10
Sword
Shield
Crossbow
Bow
Missile Weapons
(in original ITL, no talent points left for anything else)

Very fine Broadword 2d +2
Longbow
Crossbow
(limited supply of arrow and quarrels)

This is a 36 point warrior. He has the same attacks as the priest, but 4 less IQ and 4 more ST. He has to ready his weapons to switch between them. The only edge I see him having over the priest is that he can suffer 4 more points of injury. Of course, he might have to actually recover from injury by resting, while the priest can heal 7 points (which is as much as the priest can take without being dead, and he can heal an entire group for 7 each) with a healing ritual (although those are limited to a certain time of day). (The priest also seems to need no ammo for the talisman ranged attacks.)

So he's about on par with the 36-point warrior, except he's also a high priest with a large number of other powerful abilities as well.

Looks to me like he may be balanced to be as good as a 36-point warrior (better in some ways), as good as a 36-point wizard (better in some ways, except for the inconvenience of when the powers can be used), and better than a 36-point smart/talented physicker (except for the inconvenience of when the powers can be used).

[zot]

Originally Posted by Skarg

Is this meant to be balanced for use with IQ + ((ST + DX) / 2) talent points? (Because that makes a massive difference (your example character Squatka would only have 1 talent point after the priest-4 talents, if limited to IQ).)

Also, are you thinking of the ITL EP progression, or SJ's new EP progression and 40-point limit, because that makes a big difference, too.

Hold your horses, I'm not testing the balance of talent costs just yet so I can't answer that question.

Right now, I'm focusing on how it even just feels to play a priest compared to playing a hero or a wizard AT ALL. I've been able to play three sessions, total.

[zot]

Originally Posted by JLV

Hmm. I think this should be playtested either under "classic" rules that we all understand, or under the "new" rules (insofar as we know them) in order to be meaningful to the group here. The house rules you are using are not clear to all of us, nor would many of us care to use them.

I do plan to play test under the new rules when it's clear what they actually are. For the time being I'm trying to get an idea of the flow and how a priest feels to play.

Originally Posted by Skarg

* This example needs IQ 14 for Master Phyisicker and the asjusted Priest 4.

Right, my mistake.

* The talisman can be used for ranged attacks at either 1d+2 (2 shots per turn since adjDX 18) or 2d (1 shot per turn) and gets a 2d+2 melee attack with the same talisman (according to your linked write-up, contrary to the stats listed here which say 2d), which means he doesn't have to unready a bow/crossbow to fight someone up close, and it also doesn't say whether he could add a shield or not. SO, let's compare to a warrior trying to do that:

ST 12
DX 15 (18 missile)
IQ 9
MA 10
Sword
Shield
Crossbow
Bow
Missile Weapons
(in original ITL, no talent points left for anything else)

Very fine Broadword 2d +2
Longbow
Crossbow
(limited supply of arrow and quarrels)

This is a 36 point warrior. He has the same attacks as the priest, but 4 less IQ and 4 more ST. He has to ready his weapons to switch between them. The only edge I see him having over the priest is that he can suffer 4 more points of injury. Of course, he might have to actually recover from injury by resting, while the priest can heal 7 points (which is as much as the priest can take without being dead, and he can heal an entire group for 7 each) with a healing ritual (although those are limited to a certain time of day). (The priest also seems to need no ammo for the talisman ranged attacks.)

So he's about on par with the 36-point warrior, except he's also a high priest with a large number of other powerful abilities as well.

Looks to me like he may be balanced to be as good as a 36-point warrior (better in some ways), as good as a 36-point wizard (better in some ways, except for the inconvenience of when the powers can be used), and better than a 36-point smart/talented physicker (except for the inconvenience of when the powers can be used).

The points about comparison to warriors are good. Saying "better in some ways" without admitting the truth of lower ST being "worse in some ways" skews the analysis, but that omission doesn't detract from the value of the other points.

Using 9 talent points is a bad comparison, they should have been compared with the same talent point basis. Given that, he should at least have Running and I suggest moving one point from DX to IQ and giving him Fencing.

The valid points make me think of potentially replacing the Wither power. Squatka would have to spend talent points on a weapon, maybe a small bow.


"As good as a 36-point wizard" is not a good point.

The flexibility of a priest doesn't compare at all to the flexibility of a wizard inside or outside of combat.

Squatka is clearly not in the same league as a wizard in combat, even if Wither is retained. One talisman power is always available and only one other power can be activated within the span of a few minutes. Get a priest to use their second power and now you know the extent of their capability for that combat. Also, that second power comes from a list of only 3. Wizards are just too versatile in combat, compared to priests.

Outside of combat, he is supposed to be on-par with a wizard's magnitude of effects (i.e. ST per day). There's nothing wrong with that because in terms of freedom of choice, the constraints on ceremonies are severe. Let's not pretend and call those constraints merely an "inconvenience":

• Only 5 ceremonies per day
• Only 2 appointed times allow flexible scheduling (one before noon, one after)
• The times are spread out -- you can pair some up (dawn + breakfast, noon+dinner, dusk+dinner) but that's it.

A wizard has none of these restrictions.

[JLV]

Originally Posted by zot

I do plan to play test under the new rules when it's clear what they actually are. For the time being I'm trying to get an idea of the flow and how a priest feels to play.

Ah. Okay -- I thought you were further along in the playtest process than that.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by zot

The points about comparison to warriors are good. Saying "better in some ways" without admitting the truth of lower ST being "worse in some ways" skews the analysis, but that omission doesn't detract from the value of the other points.

Omission? I mentioned the 4 ST difference itself, and that it meant the warrior could take 4 more points of damage. One thing I didn't explicitly mention is that it looks like a talisman may not need two hands, making it the only one-handed missile weapon, and that therfore Squatka could also hold a shield. He also has minor advantages no one has in that he can fight strongly in melee with his missile weapon without needing to Ready, has infinite ammunition, and it may be more inconspicuous for him to carry his talisman at the ready than people with loaded bows or crossbows.

It should probably be mentioned if/how a talisman can be used in HTH.

Originally Posted by zot

Using 9 talent points is a bad comparison, they should have been compared with the same talent point basis. Given that, he should at least have Running and I suggest moving one point from DX to IQ and giving him Fencing.

Since IQ + ((ST + DX) /2) as talent base is a house rule I don't use, I thought it was interesting to compare to a warrior who isn't doing that, but yes that would be a more equal comparison. You might just give them both 1 more IQ point since Squatka really needs IQ 14 anyway, making them both 37, though I think it's significant outside that talent-point house rule that the warrior pretty much uses 9 talent points just equaling Squatka by actually learning weapon talents (i.e. a priest's talisman gives similar (better in some ways) abilities to learning 5 points of actual weapon talents.

Originally Posted by zot

The flexibility of a priest doesn't compare at all to the flexibility of a wizard inside or outside of combat.

A priest doesn't have access to the spells a wizard has, but the reverse is also true.

Originally Posted by zot

Squatka is clearly not in the same league as a wizard in combat, even if Wither is retained. One talisman power is always available and only one other power can be activated within the span of a few minutes. Get a priest to use their second power and now you know the extent of their capability for that combat. Also, that second power comes from a list of only 3. Wizards are just too versatile in combat, compared to priests.

Priests have different powers from wizards, yes, and his magic abilities are not nearly as versatile or available immediately for combat the way a wizard's are. But the priest can operate as a warrior using the talisman to a degree wizards can't without expensive talents, and they have some abilities wizards don't have. If Squatka manages to time things right, two acolytes with 1-point talents will let Squatka initiate combat with the equivalent of a lesser demon at his side, not having had to spend the 20 ST a wizard would have had to, and his friends may be buffed in various ways too.

Originally Posted by zot

Outside of combat, he is supposed to be on-par with a wizard's magnitude of effects (i.e. ST per day). There's nothing wrong with that because in terms of freedom of choice, the constraints on ceremonies are severe. Let's not pretend and call those constraints merely an "inconvenience":

• Only 5 ceremonies per day
• Only 2 appointed times allow flexible scheduling (one before noon, one after)
• The times are spread out -- you can pair some up (dawn + breakfast, noon+dinner, dusk+dinner) but that's it.

A wizard has none of these restrictions.

That's true and those are fun and interesting limitations that make comparing an apples/oranges matter, and yes in many ways a wizard has major advantages over a priest in terms of the variety and unpredictability of possible spells, no scheduling limits, and a wider range of combat-useful spells. The priest's edges are things like not using ST for spells, and also being a decent fighter and a better healer than a master physicker (at least, when able to use his ritual), plus having other ceremonies rather useful ceremonies, and the usual social/spiritual things that are what a priest is about.

[zot]

Thanks for your thoughts on this. After all of your comments, I agree that Wither is too powerful and needs to be changed or replaced, maybe I wasn't clear enough on that in my last post.

It seems like the (usually) unlimited use aspect of talisman powers shouldn't be used for direct attacks. An once-per-appointed-time attack might be possible though.

With that in mind, I think I would just be bickering if I addressed all of the points about Wither attacks, so I'm not going to do that.

Originally Posted by Skarg

Omission? I mentioned the 4 ST difference itself, and that it meant the warrior could take 4 more points of damage. One thing I didn't explicitly mention is that it looks like a talisman may not need two hands, making it the only one-handed missile weapon, and that therfore Squatka could also hold a shield. He also has minor advantages no one has in that he can fight strongly in melee with his missile weapon without needing to Ready, has infinite ammunition, and it may be more inconspicuous for him to carry his talisman at the ready than people with loaded bows or crossbows.

Yes. I think it was a reasonable complaint about the parenthetical summary. Saying that Squatka is about on par with the 36-point warrior and then adding a parenthetical "better in some ways" without also conceding that he is worse in some ways is an omission. Unless he actually isn't on par.

A priest doesn't have access to the spells a wizard has, but the reverse is also true.

In combat, the flexibility really does not compare. Priests potentially have access to two of their four talisman powers.

Priests have different powers from wizards, yes, and his magic abilities are not nearly as versatile or available immediately for combat the way a wizard's are. But the priest can operate as a warrior using the talisman to a degree wizards can't without expensive talents, and they have some abilities wizards don't have. If Squatka manages to time things right, two acolytes with 1-point talents will let Squatka initiate combat with the equivalent of a lesser demon at his side, not having had to spend the 20 ST a wizard would have had to, and his friends may be buffed in various ways too.

The warrior capability is going away so that leaves just two out of four talisman powers.

I don't think demons really have to do with comparing combat effectiveness. If it's a demon battle, though, the priest will surely lose. A wizard and his apprentices do have to spend 20 ST to summon one but they can potentially summon more than one / day during the 14 days the priest is waiting to be able to summon only one.

The buffs do make a difference in general combat and I'm fairly confident but still wondering about those. The buff ceremonies affect one person and let them activate a buff for a few minutes (i.e. one combat). They are roughly based on spells such as Aid and Blur and based on a rough ST between 7 and 12 (depending on priest level). My thoughts on what is reasonable for ST are in the designer's notes.

I'm picking 6 turns as a reasonable length of time for a combat. Gotta pick some number that seems reasonable to me. Could be wrong though.

That's true and those are fun and interesting limitations that make comparing an apples/oranges matter, and yes in many ways a wizard has major advantages over a priest in terms of the variety and unpredictability of possible spells, no scheduling limits, and a wider range of combat-useful spells. The priest's edges are things like not using ST for spells, and also being a decent fighter and a better healer than a master physicker (at least, when able to use his ritual), plus having other ceremonies rather useful ceremonies, and the usual social/spiritual things that are what a priest is about.

Thanks. I think I'm going to let a priest's general attack capability come just from weapons and combat talents. He won't be a decent fighter but talisman powers better make up for that or no one will want to play a priest.

[zot]

Skarg and JLV have both been super helpful with their feedback, spending a ton of time composing large documents with objections and questions.

I revised the talent costs to make Priest cost 5 (cost based on Chris Rice's 5-point wizard talent) and took out the physicker requirement (although physicker still helps with healing ceremonies).

Healing ceremonies are no longer required (but physicker still helps).

Talismans now interfere with spell casting -- a priest with a consecrated talisman must destroy it in order to cast spells. Talismans don't interfere with magic items, though, so a priest could get spell casting through an item. Also, they don't affect "natural magic" like a gargoyle's ability to fly.

I'm revising or replacing Wither so that it's not equivalent to a weapon.

I also changed the healing ceremony (and talisman power) to convert wounds to fatigue, like Rick Smith suggested for the Heal spell. I really like the idea that you need to rest after healing.

[zot]

Lastest Squatka based on recent rules version.

Originally Posted by zot

For Gootoh, the Mngineer, click the little arrow above this.

Squatka, Village Wise One
ST 12
DX 13 (16 / 15)
IQ 11
MA 10

Talents
Acolyte (1)
Priest (2)
Theurgy 1 (2)
Theurgy 2 (1)
Theurgy 3 (1)
More Ceremonies (8)
First Aid (1)
Missile Weapons (3)
Thrown Weapons (2)
Bow (2)

Equipment
Light Crossbow: 2 dice, once / turn
Fine Elven chain: 3 hits -0 DX

Talisman Powers
Avert (always activated)
Fierce Aura (activatable)
Cosmic Healing (activatable)

Ceremonies
Consecrate Talisman
Commune With Nature
Ancestor's Healing
Shape of the Beast
Protection of the Spirits
Blessing of the Spirits
Divine Sustenance
Summon Angry Nature Spirit
Gift of the Bear Clan
Purify
??
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