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Old 11-12-2018, 04:39 PM   #11
Refplace
 
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Default Re: GURPS Hydra Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coinage View Post
Like you said, "alot more Chakra" can be modelled as a large Energy Reserve, or by having a REALLY high amount of fatigue points. Is there anyway to model one's Duplicates so that they are fragile?
Several but I think the easiest is take the Fragile disadvantage as a temp limitation on Duplication. Technically it should be less since we dont want to apply it to the main body. However its a hefty weakness on the clones so I would just give it full value.
A RAW way would be to add Alternate Form, dups only but thats actually is more expense for less effect so I would not go there.
Also some things like an Area Effect attack with Bombardment could be bought a an alternative ability to the Duplication which lets you more cost effectively attack a large number of mooks.
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Old 11-12-2018, 05:10 PM   #12
Coinage
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Default Re: GURPS Hydra Problem

Here is my tentative outline. Please let me know what you think.

POWER
Duplication (Mental)/(Physical) (Exotic) (B50) [35/copy]
Enhancement:
Construct (Pow48) [+60%]

Limitation:
Costs Fatigue (B111) [-5%]
Nuisance Effect: “Every time a dupe is triggered to duplicate itself due to suffering a cut, lose the same amount of fatigue point as the Dupe” [-10%]


Mindlink - Telesend: 100-999 (B70-71) [+30] - Sensory (B69) [+20%]
Limitation:
Racial - Duplicates (B70-71) [-20%]


CHARACTERISTICS OF THE DUPES:
Dependency - Mana - Occasional [-20] - Constantly [x5] (B130) [-100]

Doesn’t Eat or Drink (B50) [10]

Doesn’t Sleep (B50) [20]

Duplication (Mental)/(Physical) (Exotic) (B50) [35/copy]
Limitation:
Costs Fatigue (B111) [-5%]
Trigger: “Suffers a bloody cut” [-10%]

Slave Mentality (B154) [-40]

Fragile - Unnatural (B136-137) [-50]

Last edited by Coinage; 11-13-2018 at 05:18 PM.
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Old 11-13-2018, 09:48 AM   #13
naloth
 
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Default Re: GURPS Hydra Problem

First off, your total number of bodies with Duplication is your level in the ability +1. So if you have Duplication 3 (of which each dupe effectively gets a copy), you can still only have a total of 4 bodies running around at any given time.

I'd use shared resources (fatigue, not HP), to model that having a lot of dupes running around "stretches them all thin" or tires him out. Otherwise, he can just cut himself in advance and rest up to heal the fatigue loss. Unless a high number of dupes caps his effective fatigue total, it's just not much of a limitation.

As for the limitation on duping, injury is probably worth -10% per HP it costs to dupe (up to ~40%) provided the character doesn't have Fast or Instant Regeneration. Without notable injury (a few drops of blood?), it's likely more of a special effect or a "Takes Extra Time" modifier (-10% for 2 sec, -20% for 4 sec).

If you want to have a mess of dupes that you get along with, but aren't necessarily under your control, invest in an Ally Group and just define them as dupes. It's very cost effective for a potential army of yourself. From personal experience, it's also a bit easier on a GM that doesn't have to deal with you playing a half dozen or more versions of your character like a mini party of your own. You can even mix and match a bit, so you can control up to 3 bodies (duplication created), but the other dozen or so are GM managed (ally group).
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Old 11-13-2018, 05:21 PM   #14
Coinage
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Default Re: GURPS Hydra Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
First off, your total number of bodies with Duplication is your level in the ability +1. So if you have Duplication 3 (of which each dupe effectively gets a copy), you can still only have a total of 4 bodies running around at any given time.
That is a good point. Thanks for mentioning it. As it was based off of Naruto's Shadow Clone-jutsu, it would make sense that as an advantage normal people would have a lower number of clones. Naruto is able to make so many clones largely because, thanks to the Fox inside him, he has an UNGODLY amount of CP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
I'd use shared resources (fatigue, not HP), to model that having a lot of dupes running around "stretches them all thin" or tires him out. Otherwise, he can just cut himself in advance and rest up to heal the fatigue loss. Unless a high number of dupes caps his effective fatigue total, it's just not much of a limitation.
So, since this is a very limited form of "Special Limitations: Shared Resources" (B51), should the cost be "-20%"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
As for the limitation on duping, injury is probably worth -10% per HP it costs to dupe (up to ~40%) provided the character doesn't have Fast or Instant Regeneration. Without notable injury (a few drops of blood?), it's likely more of a special effect or a "Takes Extra Time" modifier (-10% for 2 sec, -20% for 4 sec).
Could you please elaborate? Which "duping" are you referring to? The dupe's duping, or the original character duping.

Tentative Model
POWER
Duplication 3 (B50) [105, 35/copy]
Enhancement:
Construct (Pow48) [+60%]

Limitation
Nuisance Effect: “Every time a dupe is triggered to duplicate itself due to suffering a cut, lose the same amount of fatigue point as the Dupe” [-10%]
Shared Resources: Fatigue Only (B51, plus this post) [-20%]

Mindlink - Telesend: 100-999 (B70-71) [+30] - Sensory (B69) [+20%]
Limitation:
Racial - Duplicates (B70-71) [-20%]


CHARACTERISTICS OF THE DUPES:
Dependency - Mana - Occasional [-20] - Constantly [x5] (B130) [-100]

Doesn’t Eat or Drink (B50) [10]

Doesn’t Sleep (B50) [20]

Duplication (Mental)/(Physical) (Exotic) (B50) [35/copy]
Limitation:
Costs Fatigue (B111) [-5%]
Trigger: “Suffers a bloody cut” [-10%]

Slave Mentality (B154) [-40]

Fragile - Unnatural (B136-137) [-50]

Last edited by Coinage; 11-13-2018 at 05:30 PM.
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Old 11-13-2018, 06:32 PM   #15
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: GURPS Hydra Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coinage View Post
That is a good point. Thanks for mentioning it. As it was based off of Naruto's Shadow Clone-jutsu, it would make sense that as an advantage normal people would have a lower number of clones. Naruto is able to make so many clones largely because, thanks to the Fox inside him, he has an UNGODLY amount of CP.
I'm not familiar with the character, but that's certainly one possibility.

Quote:
So, since this is a very limited form of "Special Limitations: Shared Resources" (B51), should the cost be "-20%"?
I'd say that was fair for splitting your FP. Of course, you won't get up to ungodly numbers dividing FP, nor does that really work well with the Constructs enhancement where you have one main body and a bunch of disposable bodies.


Quote:
Could you please elaborate? Which "duping" are you referring to? The dupe's duping, or the original character duping.
Neither and both ;) When you by Duplication, you have a total number of bodies to control equal to the level plus one. Unless you have the Construct enhancement, all of them are equally "main", non-disposable bodies. If a body dies, you lose a level of duplication (by default, does not apply to Constructs, where the Construct can die but the main body never can).

Quote:
Tentative Model
POWER
Duplication 3 (B50) [105, 35/copy]
Enhancement:
Construct (Pow48) [+60%]
That would allow you to have a main body and up to 3 additional replaceable bodies at any one time under your control.

If you want gobs and gobs of bodies you can use "Summonable Allies" that are produced in a similar way to duplicates and you can even call them duplicates, but as Allies they will not be under your direct control. Allies are controlled by the GM, but generally act in your interest or in accordance with your wishes (depending on the Ally personality).

Quote:
Limitation
Nuisance Effect: “Every time a dupe is triggered to duplicate itself due to suffering a cut, lose the same amount of fatigue point as the Dupe” [-10%]
Shared Resources: Fatigue Only (B51, plus this post) [-20%]
"Requires Fatigue" would be per minute rather than once when summoned. Shared Fatigue would be worth -20%, even with constructs since it's a permanent decrease for as long as your have the construct active. You're effectively letting it borrow some of your essence.

Quote:
Mindlink - Telesend: 100-999 (B70-71) [+30] - Sensory (B69) [+20%]
Limitation:
Racial - Duplicates (B70-71) [-20%]
Sure, though you would need Duplication 100+ or an Ally Group of that size to use that Mindlink.

Quote:
CHARACTERISTICS OF THE DUPES:
Dependency - Mana - Occasional [-20] - Constantly [x5] (B130) [-100]

Doesn’t Eat or Drink (B50) [10]

Doesn’t Sleep (B50) [20]

Duplication (Mental)/(Physical) (Exotic) (B50) [35/copy]
Limitation:
Costs Fatigue (B111) [-5%]
Trigger: “Suffers a bloody cut” [-10%]

Slave Mentality (B154) [-40]

Fragile - Unnatural (B136-137) [-50]
I gather you do not want these advantages on your main body, but that's exactly how Duplication works. You have multiple copies the same body.

This seems to drift into Ally territory where you can summon hordes of loyal minions that obey commands somewhat mindlessly. Allies are much cheaper, but you don't run them as characters.

Copies of your character wouldn't get Slave Mentality unless you also had no initiative and depended on receiving exact instructions. Otherwise it's not a disadvantage since you already have total control of every body that is your main or dupe construct.
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Old 11-13-2018, 09:53 PM   #16
Coinage
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Default Re: GURPS Hydra Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
If you want gobs and gobs of bodies you can use "Summonable Allies" that are produced in a similar way to duplicates and you can even call them duplicates, but as Allies they will not be under your direct control. Allies are controlled by the GM, but generally act in your interest or in accordance with your wishes (depending on the Ally personality).
The character I had in mind really did want to have controlled constructs. Thx.


Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
"Requires Fatigue" would be per minute rather than once when summoned. Shared Fatigue would be worth -20%, even with constructs since it's a permanent decrease for as long as your have the construct active. You're effectively letting it borrow some of your essence.
Okay, so that means I can get rid of the Nuisance Effect, as every time a dupe construct appears, the main body, the Prime, has to give the Construct some fatigue.


Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
I gather you do not want these advantages on your main body, but that's exactly how Duplication works. You have multiple copies the same body.

This seems to drift into Ally territory where you can summon hordes of loyal minions that obey commands somewhat mindlessly. Allies are much cheaper, but you don't run them as characters.

Copies of your character wouldn't get Slave Mentality unless you also had no initiative and depended on receiving exact instructions. Otherwise it's not a disadvantage since you already have total control of every body that is your main or dupe construct.
God it, so I’ll drop the “Slave Mentality”

Here's my Tentative Model so far:
POWER: Raktabīja
Duplication 3 (B50) [105, 35/copy]
Enhancement:
Construct (Pow48) [+60%]

Limitation
Shared Resources: Fatigue Only (B51, plus this post) [-20%]

Mindlink - Telesend: 100-999 (B70-71) [+30] - Sensory (B69) [+20%]
Limitation:
Racial - Duplicates (B70-71) [-20%]


CHARACTERISTICS OF THE DUPES:
Dependency - Mana - Occasional [-20] - Constantly [x5] (B130) [-100]

Doesn’t Eat or Drink (B50) [10]

Doesn’t Sleep (B50) [20]

Duplication (Mental)/(Physical) (Exotic) (B50) [35/copy]
Limitation:
Costs Fatigue (B111) [-5%]
Trigger: “Suffers a bloody cut” [-10%]

Fragile - Unnatural (B136-137) [-50]
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Old 11-13-2018, 10:26 PM   #17
Kax
 
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Default Re: GURPS Hydra Problem

Or for a properly tiring extreme:

Duplication 3 (B50) [105, 35/copy]
Enhancements:
Construct (Pow48) [+60%]
Extra Effort (Super) [+300%]

Get 4 dupes, but if you push hard you can get a lot more. Might need more than 3 levels, though. The dupes don't have the extra effort.
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Old 11-14-2018, 07:21 AM   #18
Coinage
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Default Re: GURPS Hydra Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kax View Post
Or for a properly tiring extreme:

Duplication 3 (B50) [105, 35/copy]
Enhancements:
Construct (Pow48) [+60%]
Extra Effort (Super) [+300%]

Get 4 dupes, but if you push hard you can get a lot more. Might need more than 3 levels, though. The dupes don't have the extra effort.
I'm not sure about the "Extra Effort (Super) [+300%]". I can't find the reference. The closest thing I could find was the "Special Enhancement: Multiplication" for Duplication (Super 26)
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Old 11-14-2018, 07:52 AM   #19
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: GURPS Hydra Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coinage View Post
The character I had in mind really did want to have controlled constructs. Thx.
Sure. From your description I just wasn't sure you would be happy with only 4 bodies.

Quote:
Okay, so that means I can get rid of the Nuisance Effect, as every time a dupe construct appears, the main body, the Prime, has to give the Construct some fatigue.
Yes and remember that is on top of the 10 recoverable fatigue that it also takes to create a construct. Example: You have a normal fatigue cap of 18, and decide to spin off a construct giving him fatigue cap of 4 (which means, that construct can only spend & recover 4 fatigue) and leaving you with a fatigue cap of 14 ( 14 + 4 = 18). You also spend 10 fatigue points creating the construct leaving you with only 4 currently, but you can rest up to regain those 10 unlike the ones that are wandering around in a new body to be spent in that new body.

Quote:
God it, so I’ll drop the “Slave Mentality”
Probably better that way, it's a pretty serious disad.

Quote:
Here's my Tentative Model so far:
POWER: Raktabīja
Duplication 3 (B50) [105, 35/copy]
Enhancement:
Construct (Pow48) [+60%]

Limitation
Shared Resources: Fatigue Only (B51, plus this post) [-20%]

Mindlink - Telesend: 100-999 (B70-71) [+30] - Sensory (B69) [+20%]
Limitation:
Racial - Duplicates (B70-71) [-20%]
All good, except since you can only have 1 main + 3 construct bodies running around at any given time, you don't need a Mindlink that handles more than 5.

Quote:
CHARACTERISTICS OF THE DUPES:
Dependency - Mana - Occasional [-20] - Constantly [x5] (B130) [-100]

Doesn’t Eat or Drink (B50) [10]

Doesn’t Sleep (B50) [20]

Duplication (Mental)/(Physical) (Exotic) (B50) [35/copy]
Limitation:
Costs Fatigue (B111) [-5%]
Trigger: “Suffers a bloody cut” [-10%]

Fragile - Unnatural (B136-137) [-50]
By default, dupes have all your advantages and disadvantages, nothing more and nothing less.

If Dependency - Mana is only for dupes, then it only serves to be a very trivial time limit on a dupe. I'd count that as part of a power modifier, since it can be used to disable dupes under certain circumstances.

Doesn't Eat and Sleep could be limited to only "Alternate Bodies" for -10%. It's a rather expensive way to give those advantages out, especially if they are going to be temporary constructs that wouldn't necessarily be around long enough to eat or sleep. (After all, you could just deprive them until they starve or pass out and disappear.)

Duplication is a no-go. You can't wish for more wishes, and Construct means only your "main" body produces duplicates. If that is where you are getting the idea that you'll eventually have more than 4 bodies, it doesn't work like that. You are only getting a total number of bodies equal to what your primary character sheet has for your Duplication level plus 1. Your dupes do not add to your Duplication level ever.

Fragile would also apply to your main body - not just your dupes.
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Old 11-14-2018, 08:04 AM   #20
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: GURPS Hydra Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coinage View Post
Like you said, "alot more Chakra" can be modelled as a large Energy Reserve, or by having a REALLY high amount of fatigue points. Is there anyway to model one's Duplicates so that they are fragile?
Sure, I'd take it as a temporary disadvantage (value as -%) that only applies to the constructs (decreasing the value of Fragile by another -10%).

Duplication (Constructs +60%; Nuisance: Costs 1 HP of injury -10%; Shared Fatigue -20%; Temp Disad: Fragile, only dupes -45* -45%; Power Modifier** -10%) Total -25%.

* Note that for a temp disad to be worth it's full value you will need to have an ability worth more than 100 points.

** Power modifiers fill in things like mana dependent, countered by X, etc. Here it is a guess as to how serious being a mana dependent construct will be.

Reasoning:
- Disadvantages that only apply only to duplicates only apply when you're using Duplication hence Temporary Disadvantage. If they further only apply to one of the duplicates, then that particular ability is limited by "Alternate Body Form" which is usually -10%, though is generous.

Last edited by naloth; 11-14-2018 at 08:08 AM.
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