The Problem With Magic

[scc]

Magic doesn't exactly have the best rep, some of it deserved (Not really updated from 3e) and some not (It's too cheap), but I think I've figured out a real problem it suffers from: No Meta-physics.

There's no attempt to explain HOW any of the spells work and that's rather important. Now this may sound silly or folly but it's actually rather important because it informs you how magic itself works and what it's limits are. And lack of definitions here may have carry on effects.

An example of this problem is how the College's are organized, they work along themes rather then appearing to work on fundamental (magical) concepts, which can result in spells that would logically go together not, or very weak colleges (Food).

Now while the various other magic systems lack the same level of definition, given that they don't have pre-determined lists of spells it less of a problem.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by scc

Magic doesn't exactly have the best rep, some of it deserved (Not really updated from 3e) and some not (It's too cheap), but I think I've figured out a real problem it suffers from: No Meta-physics.

There's no attempt to explain HOW any of the spells work and that's rather important. Now this may sound silly or folly but it's actually rather important because it informs you how magic itself works and what it's limits are. And lack of definitions here may have carry on effects.

An example of this problem is how the College's are organized, they work along themes rather then appearing to work on fundamental (magical) concepts, which can result in spells that would logically go together not, or very weak colleges (Food).

Now while the various other magic systems lack the same level of definition, given that they don't have pre-determined lists of spells it less of a problem.

I don't see that as a problem, because it is a generic system (so has to work in settings with servitor angels and settings with magic as an energy field), and because the odds are that your players have no idea why magic works either, any more than the average electrician really understands subatomic physics. D&D magic does not come with metaphysics either. I still think that the two main problems are:

- There are too many common spells which let a single character break a 'typical fantasy RPG setting' (the Unofficial GURPS Magic Faq has an OK list). Many of them are basically boring spells too ... in most settings we don't want mages replacing barbers and masons.
- The implicit assumptions about how (not why) magic works which held up to GURPS (3e) Magic (about 10 FP and powerstones, repeated small, short-ranged castings to create major effects, int14magery3, mana levels, combat spells are either about as effective as a crossbow or can take one opponent out of the fight at the cost of all your FP) faded away, leaving a bundle of spells which is not very flavourful and takes too long to organize

About 10 years ago, David Pulver suggested that the solution was to regroup around a list of about 100 spells suitable for a ghost story, horror novel, or medieval legend, another list for flashy fantasy novel magic, another for technomagic, another for 'please don't call it psi' ...

[The Colonel]

Yep. Flavourless because generic - add seasoning to taste.

If you want some ideas on how to season, pick up Thaumatology, because that has all sorts of metaphysical stuff.

[scc]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

Yep. Flavourless because generic - add seasoning to taste.

If you want some ideas on how to season, pick up Thaumatology, because that has all sorts of metaphysical stuff.

This goes beyond mere 'seasoning', and really isn't something the GM should be doing, when you pick up a book like Magic and except that the spells inside it form a cohesive whole, not a couple of hundred spell ideas, for an example of the problems as I see them:

Elemental seems to be treated as both something naturally occurring AND things created by mages, they can't both be right.

Lend Vitality would suggest that a world where it is used requires something like the elthric doubles from Katherine Kerr's Deverry novels, so why isn't there a spell that reverses the effect that damages the double, which would bypass all physical defenses and likely only be heal-able by magic.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

From what I've heard Magic suffered from being very early in the 4e cycle (hence issues with still having some 3e-isms, at least according to the review I read).

[Refplace]

I'm of the mind that Magic is mostly fine and criticisms against it are mostly overrated.
Certain spells may be a problem in certain settings, just disallow them.
The colleges are organized into understandable themes that make sense in some settings but could be organized differently for other settings.
As for the metaphysics? That is a setting issue and this is a generic system. Sure it could have done with a chapter on exploring different ideas but being generic allows it to fit more places.

[AlexanderHowl]

I generally ignore Magic nowadays because it is so unbalanced. It is more enjoyable to use my own magical systems, so I generally use a combination Flexible Magic, Path/Book Magic, or Powered Magic to represent magic in my games. The advantage of using my own systems is that I knew that they were balanced.

For example, I have had games in settings where practitioners of magic had access to Path/Book Magic, Powered Magic, and Symbolic Magic. Magery was specific to each type of magic and gave unique bonuses according to the type of magic. Each type of magic possessed its own advantages and benefits (Path/Book magic was slow but inexpensive, Powered Magic was fast but expensive, and Symbolic Magic ended up between the two).

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by scc

for an example of the problems as I see them:

Elemental seems to be treated as both something naturally occurring AND things created by mages, they can't both be right.

Lend Vitality would suggest that a world where it is used requires something like the elthric doubles from Katherine Kerr's Deverry novels, so why isn't there a spell that reverses the effect that damages the double, which would bypass all physical defenses and likely only be heal-able by magic.

Magic 4e is basically Magic 3e + Grimoire 3e. And Grimoire 3e was a collection of spells from various 3e books.
So, you have spells from generic fantasy together with spells designed for the godlike Tuatha Dé Danann of Celtic Myth, industrials spell from Technomancer, ...
You really need to prune the list to what fit your setting.
Using everything together is like filling your plate at a buffet with chili con carne, oysters and Brussels sprout, topped with chocolate ice cream and a dash of mint sauce.
it may end up palatable, but if it make you sick instead, I would not blame the cooks...

As for the metaphysics, it is the default generic Magic Gurps system. It doesn't have inherent metaphysics because it is supposed to be dropped into any setting that need magic.

Sure, you can abuse it in many ways and it is incoherent as a whole ... but it work perfectly for most games where the focus is on adventuring, and if your players are seriously going to analyse the "spice" spell impact on international trade between nations instead of using it to season the owlbear steak,
-you are a lucky GM.
-you either need to remind them that it is off-topic for a dungeon delve or if it is on topic ... then you need a metaphysically and economically coherent magic system (or likely several systems for various approach). Time to break out Thaumaturgy and excel.

[Mr_Sandman]

When I hear people pointing out how the spells in Magic could completely transform a low-tech economy and society, it always makes me wonder how many mages they assume exist in a setting. More importantly, how many people who have committed their lives to understanding the mystical workings of the universe would then want to use that knowledge to become the equivalent of assembly line workers, mass producing products or basic commodities.

The Basic Set has loads of options, some of which contradictory, that a GM has to pick and choose from. I'm guessing no one posting here has a problem with that. Why shouldn't Magic also be a catalogue of options for assembling a magic system, rather than a pre-built cohesive whole?

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by scc

This goes beyond mere 'seasoning', and really isn't something the GM should be doing, when you pick up a book like Magic and except that the spells inside it form a cohesive whole, not a couple of hundred spell ideas, for an example of the problems as I see them:

Elemental seems to be treated as both something naturally occurring AND things created by mages, they can't both be right.

Lend Vitality would suggest that a world where it is used requires something like the elthric doubles from Katherine Kerr's Deverry novels, so why isn't there a spell that reverses the effect that damages the double, which would bypass all physical defenses and likely only be heal-able by magic.

A clear and logical metaphysics of magic would define the game world. I love the magic systems for Ars Magica and Mage: the Ascension but neither system is suited to Yrth or Technomancer. The Path/Book spell system is wonderful, but again, if you focus on the metaphysics in the magic system, you limit and restrict the nature of the campaign worlds.