[IW] Heinlein-1 - Page 8

Johnny1A.2 · 12-18-2015, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malloyd

If you don't need anything from there, or at least want it a lot, why did you care what their government was like in the first place? And how do you plant to "prop up" a local group without exposing any of your own assets to those local insurgents?

Certainly there are lots of cases of somebody trying to do this, running back at least to Roman client states and clear up to, well, right now in Afghanistan. The success rate isn't zero, but it's not terrific and it usually drags in a bunch of your own troops eventually. The risk from an asymmetric resistance isn't that it's going to defeat your armies, it won't, but it's that it's going to cost you more than any return you can extract from your conquest, which makes the whole thing sort of pointless and provides levers for your domestic enemies.

In most places and most times, no. The domestic enemy problem only becomes an issue under historically unusual circumstances. It's a question in part of whether the controlling power is prepared to be, and able to be, ruthless enough to crush all hope in the resistance.

There are many, many instances of puppet state propped up by outside powers in history, and when the outside power is much stronger it works more often than not.

Kymage · 01-26-2016, 02:12 PM

I've been fiddling around with this timeline to address the issue of the political parties in the US fracturing into 4 parties and also out time operations in Heinlein-1- Here is the result:

POLITICAL SITUATION IN THE UNITED STATES

Infinity’s experts are unsure as why the political situation in the United States in this TL developed as it did. It has been compared to the situation in the United States in the 1880s. The differences in the OTL that led to the changing the internal policies of the political parties, instead led to the fracturing of the parties in Heinlein-1.

The most prevalent theory is the length of the Long War acted to lock in any divisions/factions with the two party system so as to not cause any internal turmoil while fighting the Nazis. Any issue that threatened the consensus was delayed or set aside until the War was resolved. While the war was concluded in 1960, the consensus lasted for a period of time over fear that any political turmoil would distract from addressing foreign affairs. There is a school of thought in American academic circles that the US being distracted by the Great Depression was one of the factors allowing the rise of Nazi Germany.

The two traditional parties were very resistant to any change during the Long war because of that fear, even when change might have been in their favor. The example of 1948 has been cited for the intra-party squabbles in the Democratic and Republican Party circles for many years. Dewey was worried that any major changes to the New Deal domestic agenda might lead to problems in the face off with Nazi Germany. The Taft wing of the GOP was very upset with this and did not put as much effort as expected into the election and Truman was able to win reelection. The Taft faction was blamed for raising the factional differences and the establishment bore a grudge over this for years. This was one of the reasons the GOP did not win a Presidential election between 1928 and 1964.

The fracturing of the political parties started with the rise of the “Freedom Party” in Western Alaska in the 1980s. The party was small government in nature, the majority of the people in western Alaska remembering the time when the Soviet Government of Stalin/Molotov ruled them and the fact they shared a border with the Soviet Union and China were very much in favor of a small government with a very strong defense. The Republican Party of the time was more along the lines of curtailing the growth of government as opposed to shrinking it, as the OTL GOP was from the 1940s to the 1980s. The Freedom Party started spreading to the Continental United States in the 1990s, particularly in the Western states. The GOP has not really effectively addressed these concerns and has been diminishing for the last couple of cycles while the Freedom Party grew.

The other major split involved the Democratic Party was between the “Centrist”/New Deal and “Progressive” factions. In this timeline, the factors that led to the rise of the “Liberals” in the Democratic Party starting in the late 1960s did not exist. The New Deal/Labor faction of the party was able to maintain control. The Liberals split off and founded their own party when they were unable to overcome the control of the Moderates. Depending on economic factors from the development of space and planned asteroid mining efforts, with the resulting increase in government funding/revenues, the potential for the Democrats and Liberal Democrats to further split or consume one or the other exists.

Infinity’s experts are unsure how the political situation on Heinlein-1 will play out. Some believe that the parties will gradually move back to a two-party system while others think the splintering of political parties is a long-term aspect of the US political scene.

OUTTIME OPERATIONS

As of now Infinity’s operations in Heinlein-1 are in one of two areas. First, they are watching for attempted infiltration by Centurm. So far, none of consequence has been noted. However, Infinity is sure that Centurm is aware of the timeline and will attempt to infiltrate the timeline.

The second is Infinity attempting to study the timeline with an eye towards resources and science that can be exported to Homeline and adapted for use there. There has been some limited success adapting the Heinlein-1’s medical advances to Homeline illnesses.

Centrum is aware of the timeline, but really hasn’t been able to infiltrate the timeline to a great degree. There are a couple of agents, but Centrum is afraid to push the issue too hard as the local’s seem very competent and Centrum does want to take a risk about alerting them about the existence of parallel worlds.

However, there is a subset of Centrum scientists who are concerned over the existence of the timelime in quantum 3 with a similar history. They postulate there may be other timelines with a similar history in the multiverse and one of them might be advanced enough to travel to other timelines, possibly in quantums that neither Infinity nor Centrum can reach at present. Agents on Homeline are trying to find out more about what Infinity might know about this.

Reich-5 and the Cabal seem to be unaware of the timeline or if they are aware, they are not active there.

01-26-2016, 02:12 PM	#72
Kymage Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Kentucky	Re: [IW] Heinlein-1 I've been fiddling around with this timeline to address the issue of the political parties in the US fracturing into 4 parties and also out time operations in Heinlein-1- Here is the result: POLITICAL SITUATION IN THE UNITED STATES Infinity’s experts are unsure as why the political situation in the United States in this TL developed as it did. It has been compared to the situation in the United States in the 1880s. The differences in the OTL that led to the changing the internal policies of the political parties, instead led to the fracturing of the parties in Heinlein-1. The most prevalent theory is the length of the Long War acted to lock in any divisions/factions with the two party system so as to not cause any internal turmoil while fighting the Nazis. Any issue that threatened the consensus was delayed or set aside until the War was resolved. While the war was concluded in 1960, the consensus lasted for a period of time over fear that any political turmoil would distract from addressing foreign affairs. There is a school of thought in American academic circles that the US being distracted by the Great Depression was one of the factors allowing the rise of Nazi Germany. The two traditional parties were very resistant to any change during the Long war because of that fear, even when change might have been in their favor. The example of 1948 has been cited for the intra-party squabbles in the Democratic and Republican Party circles for many years. Dewey was worried that any major changes to the New Deal domestic agenda might lead to problems in the face off with Nazi Germany. The Taft wing of the GOP was very upset with this and did not put as much effort as expected into the election and Truman was able to win reelection. The Taft faction was blamed for raising the factional differences and the establishment bore a grudge over this for years. This was one of the reasons the GOP did not win a Presidential election between 1928 and 1964. The fracturing of the political parties started with the rise of the “Freedom Party” in Western Alaska in the 1980s. The party was small government in nature, the majority of the people in western Alaska remembering the time when the Soviet Government of Stalin/Molotov ruled them and the fact they shared a border with the Soviet Union and China were very much in favor of a small government with a very strong defense. The Republican Party of the time was more along the lines of curtailing the growth of government as opposed to shrinking it, as the OTL GOP was from the 1940s to the 1980s. The Freedom Party started spreading to the Continental United States in the 1990s, particularly in the Western states. The GOP has not really effectively addressed these concerns and has been diminishing for the last couple of cycles while the Freedom Party grew. The other major split involved the Democratic Party was between the “Centrist”/New Deal and “Progressive” factions. In this timeline, the factors that led to the rise of the “Liberals” in the Democratic Party starting in the late 1960s did not exist. The New Deal/Labor faction of the party was able to maintain control. The Liberals split off and founded their own party when they were unable to overcome the control of the Moderates. Depending on economic factors from the development of space and planned asteroid mining efforts, with the resulting increase in government funding/revenues, the potential for the Democrats and Liberal Democrats to further split or consume one or the other exists. Infinity’s experts are unsure how the political situation on Heinlein-1 will play out. Some believe that the parties will gradually move back to a two-party system while others think the splintering of political parties is a long-term aspect of the US political scene. OUTTIME OPERATIONS As of now Infinity’s operations in Heinlein-1 are in one of two areas. First, they are watching for attempted infiltration by Centurm. So far, none of consequence has been noted. However, Infinity is sure that Centurm is aware of the timeline and will attempt to infiltrate the timeline. The second is Infinity attempting to study the timeline with an eye towards resources and science that can be exported to Homeline and adapted for use there. There has been some limited success adapting the Heinlein-1’s medical advances to Homeline illnesses. Centrum is aware of the timeline, but really hasn’t been able to infiltrate the timeline to a great degree. There are a couple of agents, but Centrum is afraid to push the issue too hard as the local’s seem very competent and Centrum does want to take a risk about alerting them about the existence of parallel worlds. However, there is a subset of Centrum scientists who are concerned over the existence of the timelime in quantum 3 with a similar history. They postulate there may be other timelines with a similar history in the multiverse and one of them might be advanced enough to travel to other timelines, possibly in quantums that neither Infinity nor Centrum can reach at present. Agents on Homeline are trying to find out more about what Infinity might know about this. Reich-5 and the Cabal seem to be unaware of the timeline or if they are aware, they are not active there.