Dyfed ca 480 AD (Celtic Myth/Camelot/Infinite Worlds)

[cptbutton]

The Emperor Arthur by Godfrey Turton is a 1960s take on the Romanized Celtic King Arthur concept I liked.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Celts were a historical society and were not matriarchal liberal green democrats. Cattle raiding is presumably not a sport that would please animal rights activists to start with. Not to mention eating stolen cattle.

I'll grant that those historical societies of Celtic speakers we do know about are pretty far from matriarchal, liberal, green or democratic. As you say, the recreational rustling and constant macho-posturing small-scale warfare led by strongmen associated with many of them are very incompatible with any such image.

That being said, we really know very little about the pre-Roman peoples and cultures of the British isles. The fact that the islanders encountered by the Romans were speakers of Celtic languages in the 1st century BCE does not mean that there is necessarily much common cultural ground between them and other Celtic speakers or that there were no other cultures on the British isles.

There is every reason to believe that most 'Britons', then and now, descend from the hunter-gatherers who settled the islands after the end of the Ice Age. That, of course, was long before there was any such thing as Celtic languages, which, in any case, almost certainly arose on the mainland and spread to the isles later. The adoption of Celtic languages by the people of the British isles may, in places, have involved elements of conquest and invasion, but the genetic evidence rules out widespread ethnic cleansing and wholesale replacement of the pre-Celtic population.

As historical speculation or fiction, therefore, one might postulate almost any kind of people and societies in the British isles before those attested by our first historical sources. And given that in some areas, Brythonic and Goidelic language and cultural elements survived for hundreds of years after the arrival of first Romans and then Anglo-Saxon 'invaders'*, it's far from implausible to postulate, for speculative fictional purposes, that there existed cultures in sub-Roman Britain where strong pre-Celtic elements remained.

For historians, anthropologists and archeologists, it's unprofessional to use the absence of evidence to insert their personal fictional creations. For historical novelists, it's pretty much a definition of their job.

*The real history, of course, being infinitely more complex than simply an invading group of of one ethnicity dispacing another.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

You and Jason might want to stay away from MZB's novel, then. There are sequels to it, increasingly written by Diana L. Paxson, especially after MZB's death, but I've only read the first.

I'm actually reading it now. So far, I really dislike every point of view character, as they all seem to have an uncanny way to twist whatever they claim to believe and stand for into a justification for doing whatever they already want to do, all the while condemning others for supposed sins and weaknesses that are either objectively identical to what they justify in their own case or seemingly much less serious.

I don't know whether the author has a really negative view of humanity as a whole or what, but because the reader is only aware of the inner monologuing of the female characters, the unfortunate result is that it's only possible to find sympathetic characters among the male ones.

I did, at first, find Morgause sympathetic in comparison to Igraine, Vivienne or Morgaine, but that was only while the character didn't get enough attention from the author to receive an inner monologue establishing her as equally narrow-minded, hypocritical, vindictive, petty, humourless, manipulative and easily manipulated as the others.

Ironically, the best parts of the novel, as well as those most useful to me, concern the fictional ancient Goddess-worshipping culture or cultures of Britain. The 'fairy people' are clearly the sort of pre-Celtic, small-statured, dark-haired people that I want to fit into my fantasy-historical setting.

I'm still trying to figure out what cultures and ethnicities the author means when she refers to 'The Tribes' and 'Northmen', as well as how these relate to Picts or Saxons (both mentioned as distinct from these) and such historical peoples as the 'Men of the Old North' and the Caledonii, Cornovii, Ordovices, Atrebatres, etc.

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Some of the epic poetry of the region such as the Ulster Cycle might provide some inspiration.

The Táin Bó Cúalnge is probably the most famous of these
http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/

Indeed these are useful.

Originally Posted by Anders

There's a book called AD 500 that's about a fictitious expedition to the British Isles from Byzantium. I can recommend it.

I really wish I could obtain it, but that lists no e-book version. Physical books take weeks or months to arrive here.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I'm still trying to figure out what cultures and ethnicities the author means when she refers to 'The Tribes' and 'Northmen', as well as how these relate to Picts or Saxons (both mentioned as distinct from these) and such historical peoples as the 'Men of the Old North' and the Caledonii, Cornovii, Ordovices, Atrebatres, etc.

I didn't really notice the Northmen/Saxons distinction. The "Tribes" thing confused me at first, but then I got the idea that MZB is using it to distinguish between the Romanized population, living in a vaguely feudal society, and the non-Romanized population, living in a tribal society.

As for the Picts in my Ärth historical setting, I'm still not sure of the specifics, but I've pretty much settled on them being not very different from the Kelts that invaded their lands long ago. They look a bit differently (but of course after centuries of interbreeding, few pure Picts remain), and apart from a few oddities (I'm not sure which ones, but maybe they're a bit keener on tattoos, or have a body painting tradition using a wider palette compared to the Keltic focus on blue?) they've become culturally Keltic. They partake in society, but are a bit more likely than Kelts to be in serf-like positions, and (keep in mind it's 10th century, not 5th) no longer hold any grudges about having been invaded.

The Ars Magica RPG has a Pictish magical tradition, the Grugachan, a group of often Troll-blooded Human magic users, with some Lich-like elements, best documented in the 3rd Edition Ars Magica supplement "The Lion of the North" (covering the Scottish Tribunal) but updated to 5th Edition in "Hedge Magic: Revised Edition" (not to be confused with "Hedge Magic" for 4th which I like a lot more, but which isn't of relevance to you). If you can find "Lion" cheap, somewhere, it might be worthwhile purchasing for the Gruagachan idea.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I'll grant that those historical societies of Celtic speakers we do know about are pretty far from matriarchal, liberal, green or democratic. As you say, the recreational rustling and constant macho-posturing small-scale warfare led by strongmen associated with many of them are very incompatible with any such image.

That being said, we really know very little about the pre-Roman peoples and cultures of the British isles. The fact that the islanders encountered by the Romans were speakers of Celtic languages in the 1st century BCE does not mean that there is necessarily much common cultural ground between them and other Celtic speakers or that there were no other cultures on the British isles.

There is every reason to believe that most 'Britons', then and now, descend from the hunter-gatherers who settled the islands after the end of the Ice Age. That, of course, was long before there was any such thing as Celtic languages, which, in any case, almost certainly arose on the mainland and spread to the isles later. The adoption of Celtic languages by the people of the British isles may, in places, have involved elements of conquest and invasion, but the genetic evidence rules out widespread ethnic cleansing and wholesale replacement of the pre-Celtic population.

As historical speculation or fiction, therefore, one might postulate almost any kind of people and societies in the British isles before those attested by our first historical sources. And given that in some areas, Brythonic and Goidelic language and cultural elements survived for hundreds of years after the arrival of first Romans and then Anglo-Saxon 'invaders'*, it's far from implausible to postulate, for speculative fictional purposes, that there existed cultures in sub-Roman Britain where strong pre-Celtic elements remained.

For historians, anthropologists and archeologists, it's unprofessional to use the absence of evidence to insert their personal fictional creations. For historical novelists, it's pretty much a definition of their job.

*The real history, of course, being infinitely more complex than simply an invading group of of one ethnicity dispacing another.

As a side to that, where do people get the idea that the sex of a culture's gods has anything to do with how gentle they are? Artemis was among the Spartan's favorites. And they dumped captured shields in her temple.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

As a side to that, where do people get the idea that the sex of a culture's gods has anything to do with how gentle they are? Artemis was among the Spartan's favorites. And they dumped captured shields in her temple.

Heh.

Researching various Celtic divinities, myths and legends to get ideas for the power packages, I had considerable trouble discovering examples, even of healing deities, that weren't cruel and savage in some sources. Certainly the Irish and Welsh myths are hardly about cuddly divine beings.

The Morrigan and her various aspects are awesome, but not very gentle. I do want to offer a power package based on her, though. Maybe several. Something focusing on the mastery of battles and choosing the victors, i.e. Aspected Luck and Serendipity that can be granted to others. Also, as the Chooser of the Slain and Mistress of Crows, with flying spies and bonuses with death magic. And the fear and panic aspect as Nemhain, with some kind of modified Terror or subtler emotion control.

Unfortunately, the only female PC may be too, eh, stereotypically upper-class Anglo-British to be a good fit. Not that Lizzie St. Clair is soft. As a SOE/Jedburgh operative in occupied France with a brilliant wartime career, she couldn't be. Hard and beautiful as a diamond, one smitten officer described her. But very much a rational 'Athena' kind of female warrior, rather than the Morrigu's primal nature. Aristocratic, Oxford-educated and from all indications, neither very wordly before the war, nor experienced with men and romance. She's almost Victorian in her straight-laced propriety. Even her irrationality is Victorian-esque, arising from too much reading of Scott and developing into an apparent sentimental fascination with 'Celtic' Britain and various myths relating to her home near Edinburgh (myths and legends of the 'Hen Ogledd', Rosincrucians and Templars of Roslyn chapel, etc.).

There is a male PC with a Quirk relating to his propensity for female disguises, though... And he is far less 'civilised' and straight-laced than she is, in warfare as in life.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

As a side to that, where do people get the idea that the sex of a culture's gods has anything to do with how gentle they are? Artemis was among the Spartan's favorites. And they dumped captured shields in her temple.

Historically, "matriarchy" has tended to mean something very other than "in this culture, the women are in charge". Or at least, that's my impression.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Several of your packages consist of multiple Skill Talents.

[...]

You need to try much harder to stick to one Skill Talent per package..

This is a very helpful point. I'll respond to it in more detail once I have leisure. Later today probably.

Briefly, though, Talents are usually much better fits for the divine archetypes than IQ or DX, not to mention that Reaction bonuses (or alternate benefits for Talents) and reduction of training time by -10% per level of Talent that applies to the skill (up to a max -50%) are meaningful benefits in my proposed campaign. Especially as the characters face challenges having to do with their lack of Status, relationships, Cultural Familiarity and languages (where high Reaction bonuses are extremely useful) and lack of technological and military skills useful at TL2 (where decreased training time for learning new things is extremely useful).

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Also, you've overlooked the opportunity to apply Limitations to Skill Talents. GURPS Fantasy talks a bit about that, giving Preparation Required as just one example, but there are numerous opportunities for fun and flavourful fantasy ambience.

Yes, that's interesting. On one hand, I want the Talents to reflect instinctive knowledge, understanding and ability, the sort that is 'clearly' divinely inspired, so I can't limit them too much. On the other, maybe higher levels of limited Talents could represent a deeper communion with the archtype or a mystical trance.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Yes, that's interesting. On one hand, I want the Talents to reflect instinctive knowledge, understanding and ability, the sort that is 'clearly' divinely inspired, so I can't limit them too much. On the other, maybe higher levels of limited Talents could represent a deeper communion with the archtype or a mystical trance.

Yes. The more limited a Talent is, the less it looks like a "hands-off gift" from a god. You can apply a PM to it, but anything beyond that tends to make it go away too often to seem "innate".

And yes, good thinking about stacks of Talents starting with few or no Limits, then getting more and more Limited the higher you get. My preference would be for a non-smooth progression, though, where you have a max of 3-4 levels of Talent with no Limits or a PM, then on top of that maybe 3 levels that are somewhat Limited (often available but you have to perform some action to "ask" for them) and then maybe another 3 levels that are heavily Limited giving them a "ritualistic" feel.

Taking inspiration from D&D3, each divine Talent could include one weapon (or unarmed combat) skill in its bonus list, to represent the signature weapon (or signature unarmed style) of the god.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

In GURPS, a Skill Talent is effectively a sub-attribute of IQ, or DX, or in a few cases both IQ and DX. As such it represents a subset of that which IQ covers, or that which DX covers, or that which IQ or DX covers.

A character with +DX "is dextreous", period, while a character with +Talent "is only dextrous when it comes to these particular activities".

Only very few mythical archetypes that I'm trying to evoke with the power packages truly are archtypical for being good at 'all DX skills' or 'all IQ skills'. Lugh of the Long Hand may indeed be viewed as being exemplified by high DX, I suppose, and high IQ as well, but still, he was better at some things than at others. Brigid can be seen as the goddess of intellect and would not be badly modelled by a bonus to IQ, but even so, that's a very boring power.

A bonus to a limited list of skills is far more evocative than a bonus to 240+. And +2 to +5 to a limited list is much better characterisation, which does far better at suggesting a mythological role for a character, than +1 to a huge list.

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

It follows from this that purchasing multiple Talents is often nonsensical, and not something a cost-conscious players would be willing to do. Instead of purchasing 2 Talents, it's often more attractive to just buy up the relevant one of IQ or DX (even if you pay a few percent more, you get a lot more bang for your buck), especially if one of the Talents is a broad 10-pointer. Worse if both are broad. And even worse still so when purchasing 3 Talents.

Even in cases where the choice is between three Talents or one or both of IQ and DX, it does not follow that the Talents are always a nonsensical investment. For 30-40 points, three Talents can easily give a +2 bonus to all the skills that matter for the concept of the character, -20% to training time for skills and techniques which fall under the Talents, as well as +2 to Reactions from three seperate groups of people affected by the Talents (and up to +6 for those who fall into all three).

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Given that you seem to be implying that the players are to get these as "packages", e.g. everything under Brighid, etc, it's going to be problematic, and might well cause quiet resentment among your players. Quiet, un-voiced resentment (because complainers are always munchkins and nobody wants to be accused of munchkinry).

Can you point out packages that are poorly balanced against each other?